Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 18, 2014

My guess: It's so that records are broken. The ISU wants high scores to build fan base worth so many staples to the sport retiring. Trying to fill the vacuum? :laugh:

My question: how high can the scores keep going. Something is going to have to give. :think:

My huntch: ISU wants to build stars that will fill seats and high scores and gold medals build reputations. Don't forget though....the skaters still have to perform well enough to merit the so called inflation. So credit is still due. :love:

My fear: People will not give enough credit to the newbies because they beat scores set by their pears and predecessors and the older fans become disheartened.

My Solution: :bang:

shine · Apr 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
So which youngsters do you think are more promising? According to you Yulia is a fraud who can't skate very well but hides it by playing good music that hypnotizes the judges into giving her 5 golds and 3 silvers in 9 competitions and venue after venue giving her standing ovations. We've all been fooled! Tell me this. Who deserved those medals amongst the youngsters more and more importantly what did they do and at what points in their programs are they more artistic. I'm willing to listen here but maybe instead of just tearing Yulia's effort apart you could maybe shed light on the positive movements of other youngsters. I'd be much more interested in that than a two paragraph essay on your dislike for someone.

Nope, never said that. Nor did I suggest that she didn't deserve the medals she has won. She's a great athlete who is doing a her best to score well and win competitions. I just disagree with posters who make her out to be more than what she is. Many competitions have been won by skaters not based on the strength of their artistry. And you should know by now that in this sport the key to placing well is to maintain consistency, since PCS and, to a lesser degree, GOEs, always rise when a skater has been consistently landing their jumps from competition to competition. And THAT is Julia's biggest forte. I also don't necessarily believe any young skater has deserved to place higher than her overall, but I do seriously question the gap between their PCS and Julia's - most notably Edmunds in the LP and Osmond in the SP at Worlds. To me that kind of scoring is what makes judging a joke.

You say you enjoy good choero. Me too. Lets discuss Yulia's choreographed sequence. To me Yulia's Ina Bauer and the way her arms go limp is absolutely stunning and could easily be interpreted to represent tragic demise of many in the Schindlers list. She makes one turn and presents what I would say is the most artistic and beautiful spiral of the season. During so she reaches out one last time and pulls whatever is left toward her heart and then enters her final spin.

I'm afraid I'm unable to discuss artistry with you based on isolated MITFs or elements. A beautiful ina bauer or spiral does not an artist make.

Please tell me which youngsters are more artistic and most importantly where in their programs so I can rewatch and look for it.

I said in my first post upthread that I already find Radinova, Proklova, Sakhanovic and Sotskova to be better skaters and more artistic. I'm particularly fond of Radionova and Proklova because IMO they are genuine performers who are incredibly musical and truly dance to the choreography (which is also unique and well done). These two are also amazingly versatile for their age as have been demonstrated by their programs. To me being able to interpret different types of music well is an important quality of an artistic skater. It shows that the skater feels and understands the music and the movement. Outside of Russia, there are Kaetlyn Osmond and Polina Edmunds. How I wish they ALL had Julia's consistency.

WeakAnkles · Apr 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
A lot!!! Alright maybe just some but mostly a lot . Polina didn't go thru the same Junior process (multiple seasons)that these Russians went thru. It's a huge advantage for the Russians that they ALL competed much more frequently on juniour circuit. They went thru a lot of the polishing there that Polina is going thru at the Olympics and Worlds and likely next GP season. Maybe it's smarter to have Polina get two senior top tens at WOG and WC than risk another 4th or 5th at JWC like what happened to her at JGPF this year.

I remember when Yulia's was that bad...last season even. We're talking a point per PCS here. Polina was rushed in and it's apparent she lacks experience. It will come.

As far as I've been able to see so far, she can only convey one mood. Which is why I think of her as Little Miss Forlorn. Puppy love and Nazi horror? All forlorn. All the time. So count me among those who are not especially impressed with her artistry, though she certainly 1. did improve over the course of the season; and 2. has the potential to improve her artistry. But right now I'm not seeing it.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 19, 2014

@WeakAnles and @Shine

Fair enough. I think your constructive criticism is more than fair and I respect viewpoints that may differ. I've never really disputed that Yulia is receiving "generous" scoring. It's probably easier for me to see someone I think really is great receiving such scores. It will be hard to convince me that Yulia isn't the best of the youngsters and deserves more than say Polina. I guess I should just be satisfied with the results I've seen and leave it at that.

WeakAnkles · Apr 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
@WeakAnles and @Shine

Fair enough. I think your constructive criticism is more than fair and I respect viewpoints that may differ. I've never really disputed that Yulia is receiving "generous" scoring. It's probably easier for me to see someone I think really is great receiving such scores. It will be hard to convince me that Yulia isn't the best of the youngsters and deserves more than say Polina. I guess I should just be satisfied with the results I've seen and leave it at that.

Polina to me has the same problem that Carolina had when she first came on the scene: she hasn't grown into her limbs. She's like a very young colt, all sorta gangly. And look at what a thoroughbred, so to speak, Carolina turned out to be. Provided that Polina doesn't lose her jumps, I can see her developing a very similar style to Carolina's. Depends on how her body matures. But I think she has a smart mother and she's on the right path.

Look, I think Yulia is certainly ONE of the best of the youngsters. Averbuch choreographed two very smart programs. Can only convey one mood? Then think of two programs that can use that same mood in different contexts. That's smart, tailored choreography. She has unreal flexibility and great spins. And certainly charisma. But she also has small jumps and I greatly fear that when her body matures she will have a hard time keeping them. She could turn out to be another Caroline Zhang, who was also a great spinner with unreal flexibility. Still, I would LOVE to see a real rivalry develop between Polina and Yulia. Look at how it pushed Mao and Yuna. And a great rivalry is so very entertaining for the rest of us, y'know?

WeakAnkles · Apr 19, 2014

chuckm said:
That's what Polina has over Yulia---musicality. In her FS, Polina seems to float over the ice---it's one smooth move after another, no jarring contortionist poses out of nowhere that pass for 'transitions' in Yulia's programs. Polina has studied ballet seriously since she was a small child and it's clear she loves music and feels it when she skates. Right now, she's gangly, the same way Kostner was at the same age, but time will take care of that.

I just went back and read the rest of thread and saw this. Great minds think alike and all that, right? :agree: LOL! But it's eerie to me how much Polina reminds me of a young Caro--same gangliness, same coltish quality. And an innate musicality. Though Polina may have better control of her nerves--she always looks cucumber cool, doesn't she? And it took Caro a long time to get control of her's.

Now if you want to talk about the men... (and I think it would be interesting to), I find it interesting that the two of the most musical/artistic of the young male skaters are American (I'm going to be nationalistic for a moment and wave my little imaginary American flag!): Jason Brown and Joshua Farris. Oh man it's going to be an interesting quad with those two. I think Kovtun has definite artistic ability (his flamenco, when he's on, was quite good)--but he's also a bit of a headcase (shades of Jeremy). But the men usually take a little more time to get in touch with their musicality/artistry. Which is why I'm so thrilled about Brown and Farris. They already are.

gotoschool · Apr 19, 2014

I think Julia is an excellent skater. But, the comment about her receiving high PCS and GOE's because of her consistency doesn't make sense to me because she has fallen in 3 out of 4 of her last programs at the most important competitions: the Olympics and Worlds. By comparison, Asada, who has been constantly criticized for inconsistency, has only fallen in 1 (granted her Sochi SP was way sub-par) out of her last 4 skates.

karne · Apr 19, 2014

WeakAnkles said:
Now if you want to talk about the men... (and I think it would be interesting to), I find it interesting that the two of the most musical/artistic of the young male skaters are American (I'm going to be nationalistic for a moment and wave my little imaginary American flag!): Jason Brown and Joshua Farris. Oh man it's going to be an interesting quad with those two. I think Kovtun has definite artistic ability (his flamenco, when he's on, was quite good)--but he's also a bit of a headcase (shades of Jeremy). But the men usually take a little more time to get in touch with their musicality/artistry. Which is why I'm so thrilled about Brown and Farris. They already are.

Oh yes

Perhaps most astonishing is Farris' artistic development over the last few seasons. Just about from the moment he left Zakrasjek he's come on in leaps and bounds.

#freeMax

Also, all a beautiful Ina Bauer during a poignant part of the music means is that the skater is capable of doing a nice Ina Bauer, and the choreographer told them to do it at that point of the music. It doesn't mean the skater is particularly artistic or emotional.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 19, 2014

gotoschool said:
I think Julia is an excellent skater but the comment about her receiving high PCS and GOE's because of her consistency doesn't make sense to me because she has fallen in 3 out of 4 of her last programs at the most important competitions: the Olympics and Worlds. By comparison, Asada, who has been constantly criticized for inconsistency, has only fallen in 1 out of her last 4 skates.

I'm pretty sure if you look back upon the season Yulia did 5 events from December to March falling in 2 events. Mao did 3 events and fell 2 out of 3. Does this mean Mao should have lower PCS/GOE or does this only apply to your non-favorites?

Alba · Apr 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm pretty sure if you look back upon the season Yulia did 5 events from December to March falling in 2 events. Mao did 3 events and fell 2 out of 3. Does this mean Mao should have lower PCS or does this only apply to your non-favorites?

:thumbsup:
Besides, I don't think Mao was criticized for inconsistency based on her last 4 skates.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 19, 2014

Alba said:
:thumbsup:
Besides, I don't think Mao was criticized for inconsistency based on her last 4 skates.

I've never criticized Mao...in fact the exact opposite. Look up the WC's threads during the event. I was right there rooting for her. I even said I wanted Mao to win Gold and Yulia silver out of respect. I just think its ridiculous to hold Yulia to a different standard than Mao which Gotoschool was clearly doing.

Alba · Apr 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
I've never criticized Mao...in fact the exact opposite. Look up the WC's threads during the event. I was right there rooting for her. I even said I wanted Mao to win Gold and a Yulia silver out of respect. I just think its ridiculous to hold Yulia to a different standard than Mao which Gotoschool was clearly doing.

I didn't said you criticized her, and I love Mao too. Gotoschool was refering to her critics and I'm saying that those who criticized her for inconsistency were doing that based on many performances throughout the years, not just the last 4 skates.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 19, 2014

I know you didn't say I was criticizing her but to be truthful people were criticizing Mao's consistency. She fell at GPF,Nats, and Olympics (SP twice). People were critical. Yet I don't think her PCS went down. That was my point!

gotoschool · Apr 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm pretty sure if you look back upon the season Yulia did 5 events from December to March falling in 2 events. Mao did 3 events and fell 2 out of 3. Does this mean Mao should have lower PCS/GOE or does this only apply to your non-favorites?

First of all, I don't support reputation scoring. I believe that the judges should only take into account the performance that is happening in front of them at that moment. Secondly, I brought up Lipnitskaya in relation to Mao because so many had criticized Lipnitskaya's higher PCS score in the Sochi LP in comparison to Mao's LP, not just me (on this site, Youtube and twitter). In light of the bizarre scoring that began in Sochi and continued with many posters claiming there were erroneous calls (not just Mao) in the World's LP, the claim is highly legitimate.

One reason given for Mao's lower PCS was her overall poor performance in her SP (reputation scoring). Yet, Lipnitskaya fell in both the SP and LP, so under the reputation argument, how does two falls and a stumble give her a better reputation than Mao's one poor performance in the SP which only counts for 1/3 the total score. It seems to me that it makes them about even at Sochi. I understand your claim, Sam-Skwantch, about Mao's falls coming into the Olympics and it is a point well taken. But as I said, I believe the whole reputation scoring argument is erroneous anyway and should not be factored into PCS. I should have made that clear in my last post. To me, falls seem a more legitimate factor in PCS because they often detract from the enjoyment of the performance, though not always.

I think the scoring fiasco is unfortunate because it has taken the focus off the development of some really wonderful skaters, like Julia Lipnitskaya, and placed it on their scores. I hope that there will be more consistency in the scoring next season, so we can enjoy the skating instead of arguing. I wish Julia the best and hope she skates well. I also wanted to make it clear that I believe Julia deserved her second place finish at Worlds.

karne · Apr 19, 2014

Comparisons, perhaps?

Jason at 15/Jason at 16/Jason at 17/Jason at 18/Jason at 19

Joshua at 15/Joshua at 16*/Joshua at 17/Joshua at 18/Joshua at 19

*-This is the torn-hip-muscle-aftermath-of-anaphylactic-shock-broken-leg-version, for those feeling a bit squeamish.

Jason's evident artistry is absolutely magnificent, even when he was so young. But to me what stuns me every time is the way Joshua's skyrockets the second he's freed from Zakrasjek.

#freeMax

YLFan · Apr 19, 2014

To me artistry is grace, invoking an emotional response, and commanding the audience. Yulia does this well. This a long with her general talent, spins, and good looks, is what makes her so popular and successful.

Putting vaseline on her teeth for an exaggerated smile wouldn't improve her artistry.

chuckm · Apr 19, 2014

Another poster mentioned that Yulia is a one-trick pony in that all of her programs portray her as a 'forlorn waif'. I believe Yulia's team has kept her in this mode simply because she doesn't have the musicality to portray a wider range of characters and at the same time execute the difficult elements in her programs. So she does her brief character bits (sad facial expressions) at the start and end of her programs and the program itself is all meticulously choreographed to incorporate certain moves at certain times in the music to make it appear that she is 'feeling' the music.

The problem now for Yulia is her music in the ongoing seasons. She can't do "Schindler" endlessly, and there are limited pieces of music that can have a similar impact. I find it somewhat amusing that posters speak of Yulia's 'vulnerability' when it is obvious from watching her expressions off-ice that she is tough as nails, and the only time you see real emotion from her is when she doesn't win---then she is MAD--and shows it plainly.

Posters have also mentioned her consistency, which has begun to unravel a bit. IMO, that is happening because despite the strict diet and rigorous training regimen, Yulia is beginning to develop hips and the first inkling of that is her problem with the salchow. Puberty can be postponed only so long.

sky_fly20 · Apr 19, 2014

chuckm said:
Another poster mentioned that Yulia is a one-trick pony in that all of her programs portray her as a 'forlorn waif'. I believe Yulia's team has kept her in this mode simply because she doesn't have the musicality to portray a wider range of characters and at the same time execute the difficult elements in her programs. So she does her brief character bits (sad facial expressions) at the start and end of her programs and the program itself is all meticulously choreographed to incorporate certain moves at certain times in the music to make it appear that she is 'feeling' the music.

The problem now for Yulia is her music in the ongoing seasons. She can't do "Schindler" endlessly, and there are limited pieces of music that can have a similar impact. I find it somewhat amusing that posters speak of Yulia's 'vulnerability' when it is obvious from watching her expressions off-ice that she is tough as nails, and the only time you see real emotion from her is when she doesn't win---then she is MAD--and shows it plainly.

Posters have also mentioned her consistency, which has begun to unravel a bit. IMO, that is happening because despite the strict diet and rigorous training regimen, Yulia is beginning to develop hips and the first inkling of that is her problem with the salchow. Puberty can be postponed only so long.

no, she has done Carmen, Kung Fu panda in her junior years
she even wished to skate to the Expendables next season

anyanka · Apr 19, 2014

chuckm said:
Another poster mentioned that Yulia is a one-trick pony in that all of her programs portray her as a 'forlorn waif'. I believe Yulia's team has kept her in this mode simply because she doesn't have the musicality to portray a wider range of characters and at the same time execute the difficult elements in her programs. So she does her brief character bits (sad facial expressions) at the start and end of her programs and the program itself is all meticulously choreographed to incorporate certain moves at certain times in the music to make it appear that she is 'feeling' the music.

The problem now for Yulia is her music in the ongoing seasons. She can't do "Schindler" endlessly, and there are limited pieces of music that can have a similar impact. I find it somewhat amusing that posters speak of Yulia's 'vulnerability' when it is obvious from watching her expressions off-ice that she is tough as nails, and the only time you see real emotion from her is when she doesn't win---then she is MAD--and shows it plainly.

Posters have also mentioned her consistency, which has begun to unravel a bit. IMO, that is happening because despite the strict diet and rigorous training regimen, Yulia is beginning to develop hips and the first inkling of that is her problem with the salchow. Puberty can be postponed only so long.

I think as a contrast, she could do something light, playful and joyous for one of her programs. It would showcase her versatility a bit more. Although I did see she skated to Kung Fu Panda before in exhibition. Perhaps something more fun for a SP for 2014/15?

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 19, 2014

I certainly hope Chuckm is going to apply the same standards of diversity in programs to Gracie,Polina, Elena, Ashley..etc. I'm looking forward mostly to his Gracie posts if she continues her current path of ice princess. I'm sure she is capable of more and I see no need to criticize her for playing to her character but under Chuck's logic well.. :popcorn:

Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

shine

WeakAnkles

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

WeakAnkles

WeakAnkles

gotoschool

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Alba

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Alba

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

gotoschool

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

YLFan

Match Penalty

chuckm

sky_fly20

Match Penalty

anyanka

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

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