Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

skate59 · Apr 19, 2014

chuckm said:
Another poster mentioned that Yulia is a one-trick pony in that all of her programs portray her as a 'forlorn waif'. I believe Yulia's team has kept her in this mode simply because she doesn't have the musicality to portray a wider range of characters and at the same time execute the difficult elements in her programs. So she does her brief character bits (sad facial expressions) at the start and end of her programs and the program itself is all meticulously choreographed to incorporate certain moves at certain times in the music to make it appear that she is 'feeling' the music.

The problem now for Yulia is her music in the ongoing seasons. She can't do "Schindler" endlessly, and there are limited pieces of music that can have a similar impact. I find it somewhat amusing that posters speak of Yulia's 'vulnerability' when it is obvious from watching her expressions off-ice that she is tough as nails, and the only time you see real emotion from her is when she doesn't win---then she is MAD--and shows it plainly.

Posters have also mentioned her consistency, which has begun to unravel a bit. IMO, that is happening because despite the strict diet and rigorous training regimen, Yulia is beginning to develop hips and the first inkling of that is her problem with the salchow. Puberty can be postponed only so long.

So by that logic everyone at world's need to hang em up and move on..Mao, Carolina, Gracie, etc all messed up and must be unraveling...its sad....guess its time to bring in Polina.
And yes its all just the choreography.. Yulia must have just gotten lucky to get the best choreography in the world last season. " choreographed to incorporate certain moves and certain times in the music" ...um..lol..isn't that what everyone does? that's kind of what you are training to do.. The 5 golds, 3 silvers, millions that love her not to mention the standing ovations in 4 different countries clearly show she doesn't connect with the music or audience. If only she would just skate and smile!! yes smile..its all about smiling. After all being able to smile shows you have a wide range in emotions. lol..sorry I just don't get why people think she should act all happy while she preforms and somehow that would emit more emotion. Couldn't you ask the same of the all those that seem to only show the emotion of happiness? Are they one trick ponies? Just because you don't connect with her doesn't mean she isn't connecting with millions of other. I guess the only way for her to prove herself is next year. She's already had a better career at 15 then most can even dream about but I still hope she has even more coming in the future!

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 19, 2014

^Great first post!! Welcome aboard.

I've never been the peppy cheerleader type myself and that alone may be the reason I relate to a "forlorn puppy" as she seems to be summed up as. Not far from my personality. I can certainly still respect a peppy up beat program but my heart will always be drawn more to a more serious performance that I would describe as soulful a la Yulia's SP amd FS. I think diversity is a good thing. To each their own I guess.

Yulia doesn't just show anger alone either. She clearlychuckled(pun?) right after her FS in the WC's. Before the kiss and cry. On the ice where she thought she had lost even a podium spot as reported later. She hadn't seen Caro skate.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 19, 2014

karne said:
Comparisons, perhaps?

Jason at 15/Jason at 16/Jason at 17/Jason at 18/Jason at 19

Joshua at 15/Joshua at 16*/Joshua at 17/Joshua at 18/Joshua at 19

*-This is the torn-hip-muscle-aftermath-of-anaphylactic-shock-broken-leg-version, for those feeling a bit squeamish.

Jason's evident artistry is absolutely magnificent, even when he was so young. But to me what stuns me every time is the way Joshua's skyrockets the second he's freed from Zakrasjek.

#freeMax

@Karne

I'm going to watch all of these as soon as I get time. :slink:

Isabel_O'Reilly · Apr 19, 2014

skate59 said:
So by that logic everyone at world's need to hang em up and move on..Mao, Carolina, Gracie, etc all messed up and must be unraveling...its sad....guess its time to bring in Polina.
And yes its all just the choreography.. Yulia must have just gotten lucky to get the best choreography in the world last season. " choreographed to incorporate certain moves and certain times in the music" ...um..lol..isn't that what everyone does? that's kind of what you are training to do.. The 5 golds, 3 silvers, millions that love her not to mention the standing ovations in 4 different countries clearly show she doesn't connect with the music or audience. If only she would just skate and smile!! yes smile..its all about smiling. After all being able to smile shows you have a wide range in emotions. lol..sorry I just don't get why people think she should act all happy while she preforms and somehow that would emit more emotion. Couldn't you ask the same of the all those that seem to only show the emotion of happiness? Are they one trick ponies? Just because you don't connect with her doesn't mean she isn't connecting with millions of other. I guess the only way for her to prove herself is next year. She's already had a better career at 15 then most can even dream about but I still hope she has even more coming in the future!

I agree 100%.

Different skaters all move different people to varying degrees. I wish people would stop dismissing Yulia just because the expression on her face doesn't match what they think it should be. Facial expression doesn't make the program for me (unless that expression contradicts the music). It's always more about the way the whole body interprets the music. To me Yulia has always done that well ever since I first started watching her three years ago although she has grown by leaps and bounds this year.

Having said that, though, I love the smile she gave in the SP at Worlds right after the triple flip. Her short program could have a variety of emotions attached to it though. "You don't give up on love" is such a nebulous idea to portray. Yulia goes for a youthful portrayal where various emotions of seriousness and happiness could fit. 10 other people could portray 10 other ways. Any kind of happy/cheerful mood would be beyond inappropriate when skating to SL. But I hate how people say she's too serious just because she's not smiling like a maniac. Especially when I've always seen her smile this year after her performances. Maybe not the instant she stopped skating when she had an uncharacteristic mistake and was still processing, but certainly when she was responding to the crowd those times. Also when she skates well, particularly at the EC you can just feel the happiness radiating from her.

shine · Apr 19, 2014

skate59 said:
So by that logic everyone at world's need to hang em up and move on..Mao, Carolina, Gracie, etc all messed up and must be unraveling...its sad....guess its time to bring in Polina.
And yes its all just the choreography.. Yulia must have just gotten lucky to get the best choreography in the world last season. " choreographed to incorporate certain moves and certain times in the music" ...um..lol..isn't that what everyone does? that's kind of what you are training to do.. The 5 golds, 3 silvers, millions that love her not to mention the standing ovations in 4 different countries clearly show she doesn't connect with the music or audience.

Her competitive results are indeed very impressive and I think I can understand why her fans feel the need to reiterate them when defending her against criticisms towards her artistry (I'm really starting to hate using this word because it's so vague). But it's clear that skaters don't need to all be artists to medal or to be loved. So I just don't agree with this type of reasoning.

I am curious about what the new season will bring--when she's no longer skating to Schindler's List--what types of programs she will be performing and what kind of audience reaction they will get.

If only she would just skate and smile!! yes smile..its all about smiling. After all being able to smile shows you have a wide range in emotions. lol..sorry I just don't get why people think she should act all happy while she preforms and somehow that would emit more emotion.

Where is it suggested that she should smile more or that smiling being indicative of having a wide range in interpretive ability and emotions?

She's already had a better career at 15 then most can even dream about but I still hope she has even more coming in the future

No one's denying that she has done incredibly well for a 15-year-old.

Isabel_O'Reilly said:
Facial expression doesn't make the program for me (unless that expression contradicts the music). It's always more about the way the whole body interprets the music. To me Yulia has always done that well ever since I first started watching her three years ago although she has grown by leaps and bounds this year.

I thought the criticism was exactly the opposite: that she's able to pull off the facial expression part but her movement and body language don't convey the same degree of emotions, and hence some find the overall presentation fake / superficial.

karne said:
Also, all a beautiful Ina Bauer during a poignant part of the music means is that the skater is capable of doing a nice Ina Bauer, and the choreographer told them to do it at that point of the music. It doesn't mean the skater is particularly artistic or emotional.

This.

chuckm · Apr 19, 2014

I didn't like Gracie's programs either, but "Sleeping Beauty" was done with her old coach, and it was too late to change both SP and FS when Carroll came aboard. I hope Gracie does two completely different types of programs next season, and no more ice princess.

For that matter, Kaetlyn Osmond should break out of the coquette/seductress stereotype she seems to be locked into. Two seasons in a row of that should be more than enough.

shine · Apr 19, 2014

^You have a point. But at least her SP and LP always greatly contrast each other in style and mood. And to me, no other lady currently does the dancey programs (her past two SPs) as convincingly. And even if the both SPs have been dancey, Fosse and latin have totally different styles of movement.

karne · Apr 19, 2014

karne said:
Comparisons, perhaps?

Jason at 15/Jason at 16/Jason at 17/Jason at 18/Jason at 19

Joshua at 15/Joshua at 16*/Joshua at 17/Joshua at 18/Joshua at 19

*-This is the torn-hip-muscle-aftermath-of-anaphylactic-shock-broken-leg-version, for those feeling a bit squeamish.

Jason's evident artistry is absolutely magnificent, even when he was so young. But to me what stuns me every time is the way Joshua's skyrockets the second he's freed from Zakrasjek.

#freeMax

Also, I thought it pertinent to add the results:

15 (Junior): 1st Jason, 2nd Joshua (margin: 0.19!!!!!!)
16 (Senior): 8th Jason, 21st Joshua
17 (Senior): 8th Jason, 16th Joshua <---- JWC: 2nd Joshua (margin to Han Yan: 0.5), 3rd Jason
18 (Senior): 4th Joshua, 9th Jason <---- JWC: 1st Joshua, 2nd Jason, margin: 4pts
19 (Senior): 2nd Jason, 4th Joshua

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 19, 2014

Ok so about this

I thought the criticism was exactly the opposite: that she's able to pull off the facial expression part but her movement and body language don't convey the same degree of emotions, and hence some find the overall presentation fake / superficial.

That's why I brought the Ina Bauer and Spiral up. While achieving a very good Ina Bauer Yulia lends her entire body to the music and conveys a lifeless body very fitting of a Schindlers program for obvious reasons. My only wish would be that the rink was longer so she could keep going for 10 more seconds. It isn't the fact that it's an Ina Bauer. It's the way she does it that strikes me as artistic.

I'd welcome other examples of other young skaters doing similar gestures and how their fans are moved by them. That would be a better direction for this thread.

skate59 · Apr 20, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
^Great first post!! Welcome aboard.

I've never been the peppy cheerleader type myself and that alone may be the reason I relate to a "forlorn puppy" as she seems to be summed up as. Not far from my personality. I can certainly still respect a peppy up beat program but my heart will always be drawn more to a more serious performance that I would describe as soulful a la Yulia's SP amd FS. I think diversity is a good thing. To each their own I guess.

Yulia doesn't just show anger alone either. She clearlychuckled(pun?) right after her FS in the WC's. Before the kiss and cry. On the ice where she thought she had lost even a podium spot as reported later. She hadn't seen Caro skate.

Thanks Sam!!! and I agree as her personality is similar to mine as well. Although she is definitely more dedicated then I ever was lol. I like the more dramatic programs as well. I love the fact that she gets mad when she doesn't feel she did well and shakes her head in disbelief when she wins after she feels she has a bad skate. It shows how much she cares and I hope she never loses that dedication. I sometimes worry that they are softening her too much. I want her to be happy but I still want the Yulia that glares daggers at everyone!! :laugh:

especially the media!

Like you said though, to each their own and I'm fine with it until people start bashing others.

skate59 · Apr 20, 2014

Isabel_O'Reilly said:
I agree 100%.

Different skaters all move different people to varying degrees. I wish people would stop dismissing Yulia just because the expression on her face doesn't match what they think it should be. Facial expression doesn't make the program for me (unless that expression contradicts the music). It's always more about the way the whole body interprets the music. To me Yulia has always done that well ever since I first started watching her three years ago although she has grown by leaps and bounds this year.

Having said that, though, I love the smile she gave in the SP at Worlds right after the triple flip. Her short program could have a variety of emotions attached to it though. "You don't give up on love" is such a nebulous idea to portray. Yulia goes for a youthful portrayal where various emotions of seriousness and happiness could fit. 10 other people could portray 10 other ways. Any kind of happy/cheerful mood would be beyond inappropriate when skating to SL. But I hate how people say she's too serious just because she's not smiling like a maniac. Especially when I've always seen her smile this year after her performances. Maybe not the instant she stopped skating when she had an uncharacteristic mistake and was still processing, but certainly when she was responding to the crowd those times. Also when she skates well, particularly at the EC you can just feel the happiness radiating from her.

Yes...that's exactly it. I don't understand how what some expected her to be during SL? I thought the whole program was done amazingly well both in choreography and Yulia's overall ability to perform. I'm sure as she progresses she will get even better. She said herself though that she isn't the type to do a happy/ cheerful program lol but I really liked her Kill Bill gala and hopefully she explores that side more. I'm excited to see what she does next season.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 20, 2014

skate59 said:
Thanks Sam!!! and I agree as her personality is similar to mine as well. Although she is definitely more dedicated then I ever was lol. I like the more dramatic programs as well. I love the fact that she gets mad when she doesn't feel she did well and shakes her head in disbelief when she wins after she feels she has a bad skate. It shows how much she cares and I hope she never loses that dedication. I sometimes worry that they are softening her too much. I want her to be happy but I still want the Yulia that glares daggers at everyone!! especially the media!

Like you said though, to each their own and I'm fine with it until people start bashing others.

Agree. Yulia daggers are great...no one is safe. No one!! One of my top Olympic moments was Sandra comentating during the team SP and pretty much whispering " this girl is all business" as if Yulia might hear her and launch an attack. :laugh:

chairmanmao · Apr 21, 2014

skatedreamer said:
With all due respect, I need to disagree re: artistry. To me, Polina has a much stronger connection to her music than Yulia, although clearly Polina has a lot of maturing to do. I've watched Yulia many times hoping to see what you do. Her jumps and spins knock my socks off (especially the spins!) but in terms of presentation she still leaves me cold. Still, that's only my opinion -- not looking to convert you!

I do think you're right about Polina's scores, though.

What a load of BS. Lipnitskaya actually has one of the most memorable SP's I can remember. By that logic that ostrich must have the best ever.

donezo · Apr 22, 2014

chairmanmao said:
What a load of BS. Lipnitskaya actually has one of the most memorable SP's I can remember. By that logic that ostrich must have the best ever.

One of the most memorable ever? Really? I swear, some people on this board have zero concept of the history of this sport. Hell, I think Angela Nikodinov had a superior take on the same music 12 years ago.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

The most memerable I can remember and the most memorable ever are two different things. So ya know.

sk8in · Apr 22, 2014

shine said:
I thought the criticism was exactly the opposite: that she's able to pull off the facial expression part but her movement and body language don't convey the same degree of emotions, and hence some find the overall presentation fake / superficial.

Exactly this. She had great leg positions, but no soul. To me skating artistry is about deliberateness of movements and timing, and Julia races through her choreography. I don't think her interpretation scores should be very high yet.

skate59 · Apr 22, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
Agree. Yulia daggers are great...no one is safe. No one!! One of my top Olympic moments was Sandra comentating during the team SP and pretty much whispering " this girl is all business" as if Yulia might hear her and launch an attack.

lol..yeah I don't think anyone wants to be on the other end of her stare. Yulia's interviews are the best, I just wish more were translated.

karne · Apr 22, 2014

So I guess the tl;dr of this thread is that Yulia is the only youngster out there and only her artistry is worth discussing.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

karne said:
Comparisons, perhaps?

Jason at 15/Jason at 16/Jason at 17/Jason at 18/Jason at 19

Joshua at 15/Joshua at 16*/Joshua at 17/Joshua at 18/Joshua at 19

*-This is the torn-hip-muscle-aftermath-of-anaphylactic-shock-broken-leg-version, for those feeling a bit squeamish.

Jason's evident artistry is absolutely magnificent, even when he was so young. But to me what stuns me every time is the way Joshua's skyrockets the second he's freed from Zakrasjek.

#freeMax

I'm with you 100% about discussing others! This is a rather lengthy homework assignment TBH. I've only had time to watch a few of these with full attention. Here is what I think so far.

The thing I noted about Josh on first impression was his arms. At 15 they were a bit wild. What he was doing with them in the StSeq seemed quite bizarre to me. One would have to be blind not to recognize his artistic capability though. Coming to present day you can see how much expression he has in the StSeq for Schindlers which is performed exceptionally well and full of emotion. Arms fully controlled and used to not only convey his musical interpretation but maybe more importantly they show his control over the ice. His speed changes well too and it seems this is where he takes advantage to show the emotion of the music. A good measure of a program to me is if the StSeq is memorable. His Schindlers is.

I really don't watch the men as much so its hard for me to make comparisons. In terms of mens skating I feel like the jumps are over emphasized. Not so much in scoring because in the ladies the jump content is just as vital. I just mean the jumps tend to overshadow the program and take from the theme quite often instead of lending themselves to the interpretation of a piece. Just my opinion mind you and who knows how I'll feel over the next few years. I'm fairly open to change.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

sk8in said:
Exactly this. She had great leg positions, but no soul. To me skating artistry is about deliberateness of movements and timing, and Julia races through her choreography. I don't think her interpretation scores should be very high yet.

I'm sorry but no. The thing Yulia has is soul compared to say Radinova who is a natural born performer. While Elena is more light hearted and I'm sure more enjoyable to some Yulia is more of a dramatic actor/interpreter. A new york dance critic acclaimed her for her soulful take on skating that many of her elders lack. It's fine to prefer one and not the other but to say Yulia isn't soulful just seems the most inaccurate description yet. Then you say she isn't deliberate. Please show me another skater more detail oriented then Yulia. Every arm motion and finger extention may seem frantic to you but they aren't. Everything is planned down to the use of her fingers which she and Eteri describe as a source of control and grace in figure skating. It's actually OTT detail oriented and honestly why I thought people called her a robot. During the Olympics Sandra specifically said "everything this girl does is so detail oriented" "she is all business". It's why her themes are so well presented and received. She creates an image with every movement and pose with a purpose.

I do admit she gets off of the music at times but that likely will improve...maybe not. Hard to say but there is no way you can say her artistic value hasn't skyrocketed from Juniors to her sophomore season. She has a great choreographer that seems capable of bringing the best out in her and there are moments when she is locked into the music beyond that of people many years her elder.

Can you maybe take your favorite youngster and point out their artistic strengths? I'd prefer that for this thread and I'm tired of just defending a certain someone. I really wish someone could explain what exactly Polina is interpreting. What is her theme. What does she portray and where specifically in her programs are people connecting?

Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

skate59

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