Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

shine

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Ok so about this



That's why I brought the Ina Bauer and Spiral up. While achieving a very good Ina Bauer Yulia lends her entire body to the music and conveys a lifeless body very fitting of a Schindlers program for obvious reasons. My only wish would be that the rink was longer so she could keep going for 10 more seconds. It isn't the fact that it's an Ina Bauer. It's the way she does it that strikes me as artistic. :cool:

I'd welcome other examples of other young skaters doing similar gestures and how their fans are moved by them. That would be a better direction for this thread.
Extension is important, and often the so-called artistic skaters tend to have great extension, because it's an important foundation upon which many components of artistic expression can be built. But merely having extension does not mean the skater is artistic or a good dancer. People used to criticize Cohen for striking beautiful positions which always appeared more impressive in still frame photos than in motion. This criticism applies to Lip even more IMO. The fact that you want her to hold it for 10 more seconds kind of proves my point about it being better in still frame than in motion. Like another poster said, figure skating / dancing is about motion. She may have good stretch (flexibility definitely helps) and hits nice positions, but the way she transitions from one move to another through time is frantic, one-pace, lacking real awareness of her body in space, and rarely in tune with the phrasing and dynamics of the music. There are so many times when the music calls for softer, more subtle movement but she would just rush through the same exact way as any other time. She's a talented skater and has done incredibly well ticking all the tangible boxes of PCS that can be more or less measured. But to me she is just not one of those skaters who really feel the beauty of music and movement, but that's not covered by PCS. What's interesting (but not surprising to me) is that even her choreographer has said that she has a very calculating personality and admitted that he doesn't consider Schindler's List to be one of his outstanding works.

I'm sorry but no. The thing Yulia has is soul compared to say Radinova who is a natural born performer. While Elena is more light hearted and I'm sure more enjoyable to some Yulia is more of a dramatic actor/interpreter.
Having "soul" has nothing to do with the program being light-hearted or solemn. Mozart wrote so many compositions that are light-hearted and vivacious, but to me he was one of the most profound and soulful composers of all time. To me Radionova has so much soul because her skating has real passion, genuinely feels the music from within, generously opens herself up to the audience, and loses herself in the choreography.
 

chuckm

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I agree! Radionova has soul in spades. If she skated to "Schindler" you would see the emotion in her skating, not just in the few seconds at the beginning and end of the piece. Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely we will ever see Elena do "Schindler".

Yulia is all business. She isn't doing any interpretation in the actual program. She is there to execute her elements, and she does as the choreographer suggests in relation to the music---hence the soullessness of her performance.

Elena is all performance and it is amazing that she executes her elements so well while relating 100% to the music.
 

skatedreamer

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So I guess the tl;dr of this thread is that Yulia is the only youngster out there and only her artistry is worth discussing.

Not at all. It's just that Yulia was the most visible of all the "babies" during the Olympics so there has been more discussion about her.

What's really noteworthy, though, is that she seems to inspire such strong feelings, both pro and con. Whether or not you like her skating, it's impossible to dismiss or ignore her. That's a priceless asset for any performer and it can't be taught. It's a gift, and Yulia has it big time. For that, I envy and admire her.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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When I see Elena I see a very talented girl that appears to poses great dancing ability. She uses her arms and often her body in between her turns and certain elements to accent the music and her interpretation of it. I get that. What I don't get is how anyone can say she is soulful. I actually have had to search out a definition of the word to make sure I'm not insane here.

Soulful:adjective
1) expressing or appearing to express deep and often sorrowful feeling.
"she gave him a soulful glance"

Um...where is this in any of Elena's performances. When I see Elena I say..wow. This girl is like a natural born talent. A true performer. And one that is clearly enjoying herself While she performs. She will never transcend into the deep emotions what Yulia is naturally and yes genuinely blessed or cursed with(your interpretation). That is ok. I want diversity. I crave it.

I've been watching all of Elena's performances today and have come up empty to find even one soulful moment. No emotion is conveyed except the joy of dancing/skating. Nothing really deep is happening for me at least. I'm still waiting for someone to point it out.
 

hippomoomin

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As a fan of Radionova type of skater, I have to stay the level of "artistry" between Radionova and Julia is more obvious in their exhibitions, where Julia is not packaged as seamlessly as her programs.
 

BusyMom

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Soulful:adjective
1) expressing or appearing to express deep and often sorrowful feeling.
"she gave him a soulful glance"

Try Merrium-Webster version here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soulful

Meaning: full of or expressing feeling or emotion .

That sounds like Radionova to me.

English words have many different translation, various from one situation to another. You just use the first one from Google result.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Try Merrium-Webster version here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soulful

Meaning: full of or expressing feeling or emotion .

That sounds like Radionova to me.

English words have many different translation, various from one situation to another. You just use the first one from Google result.

I used the defining words I thought most applicable and of course Elena is expressive. I mean no disrespect to her and I more than appreciate her expressive efforts. In many ways as much as Yulia albeit in a completely different manor. My intent isn't to discredit Elena but to identify what I feel is one of Yulia's strengths. A deep connecting emotion.

Here is yet another definition:


soul·ful (sōl′fəl)
adj.
Full of or expressing deep feeling; profoundly emotional.
soul′ful·ly adv.
soul′ful·ness n.
Yu'lia Lip•nit•ska•ya n. :slink:

Sounds more like Yulia to me too.
 

donezo

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Jan 12, 2014
I agree! Radionova has soul in spades. If she skated to "Schindler" you would see the emotion in her skating, not just in the few seconds at the beginning and end of the piece. Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely we will ever see Elena do "Schindler".

Yulia is all business. She isn't doing any interpretation in the actual program. She is there to execute her elements, and she does as the choreographer suggests in relation to the music---hence the soullessness of her performance.

Elena is all performance and it is amazing that she executes her elements so well while relating 100% to the music.

100% agreed.
 

YLFan

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To me personally, Elena is kind of odd and annoying. I like Yulia's personality because she is so refined and commands attention without pandering or acting phony.

Also now that I think about it, why does Yulia always get hit wit the 'puberty is going to affect her' card when she has clearly grown and isn't likely to grow more anytime soon. While Elena is younger and clearly not full grown. Or how about Edmunds who is tall and very lanky and is going to put on weight.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Shall we turn our attention elsewhere? Anna Pogorilaya maybe?

Here is her SP at Junior worlds last year. Very slow and lacking much conviction. Egyptian like choreo:slink: You can see potential but it hasn't matured yet. More on par with where Polina is now. Young colt just learning the pasture.<thank you Weakankles> Hadn't yet grazed to the far fences.
http://youtu.be/n-D_Y0dBHjQ

And now at 2014 Senior Worlds
http://youtu.be/aiQfj9t5t6o

Wow. Speed is great and her arms seem to flow along in rhythm to each note of music with only a few minor lapses. Probably the best skating skills amongst the youngsters. I'm not getting a strong artistic/individual feel or take on the music. Instead I feel that she is like a powerful current that glides along the ice pulling everyone in with each turn. This is a different type of art. It really is a beautiful skate and while maybe lacking some originality their are many quality elements and feelings presented to keep most FS fans :popcorn:


Anna vs Polina would be a fitting rivalry. They skate similarly and as Polina matures she should be comparable in many ways.
 

BusyMom

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When I see Elena I see a very talented girl that appears to poses great dancing ability. She uses her arms and often her body in between her turns and certain elements to accent the music and her interpretation of it. I get that. What I don't get is how anyone can say she is soulful. I actually have had to search out a definition of the word to make sure I'm not insane here.

Soulful:adjective
1) expressing or appearing to express deep and often sorrowful feeling.
"she gave him a soulful glance"

Um...where is this in any of Elena's performances. When I see Elena I say..wow. This girl is like a natural born talent. A true performer. And one that is clearly enjoying herself While she performs. She will never transcend into the deep emotions what Yulia is naturally and yes genuinely blessed or cursed with(your interpretation). That is ok. I want diversity. I crave it.

I've been watching all of Elena's performances today and have come up empty to find even one soulful moment. No emotion is conveyed except the joy of dancing/skating. Nothing really deep is happening for me at least. I'm still waiting for someone to point it out.
In your post here, you were questioning people using the word "soulful" to Radionava. You pick the one meaning (the wrong one indeed)to show that Radionova not the one who has the soulful emotion but Julia instead.

I used the defining words I thought most applicable and of course Elena is expressive. I mean no disrespect to her and I more than appreciate her expressive efforts. In many ways as much as Yulia albeit in a completely different manor. My intent isn't to discredit Elena but to identify what I feel is one of Yulia's strengths. A deep connecting emotion.

Here is yet another definition:


soul·ful (sōl′fəl)
adj.
Full of or expressing deep feeling; profoundly emotional.
soul′ful·ly adv.
soul′ful·ness n.
Yu'lia Lip•nit•ska•ya n. :slink:

Sounds more like Yulia to me than most other skaters.
I don't know about disrespectful but you obvious degrading her to lower level than Julia in this case, which obviously there are few people who disagree with you and few who does. Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone is entitle to his/her opinion.

I admire your devotion to Julia. But here the thing, you always jump to attack people who dislike or comments on Julia with the wrong defensive logic (in this case for example). That was also very sad because it also involves other skaters. Of course her accomplish this year is looking good but she has too many flaws for many people care to like. She leaves too many doors open for people to criticize her skating including her personalities. Some people don't find her spiral and spins impressive because about 4-5 years ago there are a group of acrobatic/gymnastic typed of skaters from Russian showed up in JGP, some of them have more effortless position. Too bad back then Russian had Adelina and Tuk who had more superior jumps. So, of course, they didn't make it to the senior level. I leave my judgement to Julia for another few years. If she successfully avoids Caroline Zhang's Fate, that will be the right time to praise her.

One more thing:
Deep feelings doesn't mean soulful.
Soulful means abilities to express deep feelings.
Deep feelings are the intense feeling accumulated for a long period of time.

you can't be expressed deep feeling when you rush around the rink frowning why attack one element to another. ;)
 

chuckm

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To me personally, Elena is kind of odd and annoying. I like Yulia's personality because she is so refined and commands attention without pandering or acting phony.

IMO, it's just the opposite. Elena literally skates her heart out. Yulia commands attention with her gumby spins, but her facial expressions at the start and end of her programs are the epitome of "pandering" and "acting phony".

Also now that I think about it, why does Yulia always get hit wit the 'puberty is going to affect her' card when she has clearly grown and isn't likely to grow more anytime soon. While Elena is younger and clearly not full grown. Or how about Edmunds who is tall and very lanky and is going to put on weight.

Yulia has grown UP, but she has no boobs and no hips yet. She may possibly grow even taller, but she definitely will develop a woman's body at some point. Once she does, her center of gravity will change and that can be a major disruptor when it comes to jumps and the kind of gumby spins she has been doing.

Elena definitely has growth and physical development in her future.

Polina does have boobs and hips, even though she is quite slim. She may fill out further, but because her body has already developed some and she is tall, she should be easily able to adjust to the gradual changes of maturity, just as Kostner has.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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I admire your devotion to Julia. But here the thing, you always jump to attack people who dislike or comments on Julia with the wrong defensive logic (in this case for example).
And now Chuckm posts:
Yulia commands attention with her gumby spins, but her facial expressions at the start and end of her programs are the epitome of "pandering" and "acting phony".

And now how should I respond to such a respectful post? What logic will work here?
 
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nimi

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Apr 7, 2014
So-Youn Park really impressed me at Worlds. Has anybody even mentioned her in this thread? She had more maturity and fluidity than I would have expected from a relatively unknown 16 yr old. Choosing The Swan as your music is VERY RISKY for such a young skater. Instead of a graceful swan gliding around, you could easily end up looking like an awkward duckling bumbling and flailing around on a frozen pond. But even with those couple of mistakes in the jumps, she kept it together and pulled it off. And her FS was even better! Of course she's still somewhat tentative and focusing on getting the jumps done, but I do see some genuine musicality there, and her step sequences were actually nice to watch.
So, comparable to Polina minus the gangly limbs, I guess?
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Thank you!! Please take this thread in a positive direction. I felt a strong connection to her. I look forward to many more skates to come from this one.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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It's terrible!! I keep getting sucked in! I don't know why I feel so compelled to defend someone who honestly wouldn't care less what anyone here or anywhere else thinks of her. Ironic? I really want to discuss Pogo and offered up two videos I thought worthy of discussion.

BTW- you're partially the reason this thread exists!! Lol :cool:
 

skatedreamer

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It's terrible!! I keep getting sucked in! I don't know why I feel so compelled to defend someone who honestly wouldn't care less what anyone here or anywhere else thinks of her. Ironic? I really want to discuss Pogo and offered up two videos I thought worthy of discussion.

BTW- you're partially the reason this thread exists!! Lol :cool:

That's why I've been lurking & not saying much -- opened a big ol' can of worms last time! :rolleye: Started on several posts and then decided to keep my "mouth" shut. Just about had to sit on my hands, though. :biggrin:

Hey, it's all good as long as we all agree to disagree respectfully...
 

mskater93

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Oct 22, 2005
SS, the more you defend, the more you make people cling staunchly to their opinion (kinda like sky and his/her Gracie nonsense). I have been on the fence about YL (wait and see; I felt the same way about Mao when she was that age when people were raving about her) but I am starting to dislike her with your constant defense and seemingly intentional misunderstanding of others' opinion. It's OK if other fans don't see her like you do. That's what makes skating great - that different skaters "speak" to different fans. If the same skater "spoke" to everyone, it'd be a boring world indeed. Heck, even Michelle Kwan didn't speak to everyone (as evidenced by the Lipinski and Cohen fan wars).

On a more on topic note, I believe Karen Chen has a great future if she can avoid (re)injury in terms of artistry along with Tessa Hong (Intermediate National Champion in the US in 2014, already working with Frank Carroll who actually CHOREOGRAPHED her programs this past season for her).
 

BusyMom

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That's why I've been lurking & not saying much -- opened a big ol' can of worms last time! :rolleye: Started on several posts and then decided to keep my "mouth" shut. Just about had to sit on my hands, though. :biggrin:

Hey, it's all good as long as we all agree to disagree respectfully...
But it is a good thread though....:clap:
 
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