Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

Mrs. P · Apr 22, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
It seems hard at such a young age for the mind to focus on both image and technical merits. It's like the tech skaters are always thinking one move ahead which seems almost necessary but inevitable takes from the "moment". Few have or ever will master both at the such a young age.

Which do you feel better serves the youngsters?

Shall I crack a PBR?

Got to rep my home state, Rainier, baby!

I think in hindsight, Jason's team was a bit smarter in not forcing the technical content, especially with his growth spurts. He reach his full height of 5'7" when he was 17 or 18. When he was 14-15 he was 5'1". Six inches a huge! I believe that a big reason why it took him so long to get the 3A. IIRC correctly he had a major growth spurt from age 16 to 17 -- about 3 inches and it wreck havoc on all his jumps. So I think it was beter to focus on what he could control, which was performance and improving aspects such as flexibility and interpretation.

Josh seemed to deal with so many injuries and issues over the years, I can't help but wonder if they were having him take on too much, too soon.

karne · Apr 22, 2014

Mrs. P said:
And Jason and Joshua at 14:

Mrs P bringing the cute adorable videos as always. :love:

Mrs. P said:
Josh seemed to deal with so many injuries and issues over the years, I can't help but wonder if they were having him take on too much, too soon.

After reading that Josh had to have surgery for "osteochondritis dissecans" when he was 14 I looked it up. The internet is very blunt and describes it outright as an overwork injury common in growing adolescent athletes.

tl;dr: Evil Zakrasjek breaks babies.

Or to put it another way: under Zakrasjek, Josh had a major injury pretty much every year. Since leaving Zakrasjek...he's had one, and a minor one at that. Make of that what you will!

Meoima · Apr 22, 2014

karne said:
After reading that Josh had to have surgery for "osteochondritis dissecans" when he was 14 I looked it up. The internet is very blunt and describes it outright as an overwork injury common in growing adolescent athletes.
Evil Zakrasjek breaks babies.
Or to put it another way: under Zakrasjek, Josh had a major injury pretty much every year. Since leaving Zakrasjek...he's had one, and a minor one at that. Make of that what you will!

He is so young. Why injury after injury... The coach was pushing him too much?

karne · Apr 23, 2014

Meoima said:
He is so young. Why injury after injury... The coach was pushing him too much?

Zakrasjek is renowned for pushing his skaters too far. Thankfully, Joshua managed to escape with his career and body reasonably intact.

#freeMax

mskater93 · Apr 23, 2014

Alba said:
I absolutely agree with you, although I think it's a bit stupid to dislike a skater because of her fans. Based on that logic I should hate Yuna.

I really mean I look at her skating with a more critical eye than I would if there were a lot of detractors to her skating. If she had a lot of detractors, I'd try and look for positives. Since everyone just is SO excited about her "artistry" I look at it more critically and, as I said, I am more on the fence regarding her style (don't think she's as good as some of her fans make her out to be yet, kinda like Mao when she was 15-16).

And SS, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, it just seems as if any time anyone says anything you disagree with (or remotely critical) regarding Julia, you jump in and try and argue with them which just makes for rebuttal that becomes more critical, sometimes negative, and often a bit exagerated in their negative tone because they feel like they have to counteract the glowing commentary (like the folks that now are starting to hope Gracie falls or whatever because of her "fan"). You can agree to disagree with the folks that find her one note, robotic, or not to their liking and hope they come around over time. Not everyone is going to like every skater. It's just a fact. As I said, during Kwan's career, there were people who were on the ABK bandwagon (anyone but Kwan) and who supported Lipinski, Slutskaya, Cohen et al to various degrees because they didn't get what was so great about Kwan.

Again: upcoming talent (which some on this board may not have seen) who seem to have some semblance of artistry: Karen Chen and Tessa Hong. Also, I thought I saw promise in Tyler Pierce and Elizabeth Nguyen (both US Juniors this past season).

Jombi · Apr 23, 2014

One of the most gifted and talented (artistically speaking) among the youngsters I believe is Shoma Uno

Here his SP at JW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSw1CdC3RMQ
Ex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idzi8ns1Ta0

Another skater I really enjoyed in saitama was Jin Seo Kim (17 years old)

LP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB5XnyCF6GA

Nice personality on the ice, lovely interpretation (especially in the second part of the LP). In the years to come he could be top ten material (at the condition of upgrading his technical content). I'll keep an eye on him!

Meoima · Apr 23, 2014

The problem I have with Uno is his jumps. :scowl:

Jump · Apr 23, 2014

According to Wiki, Jin Seo Kim started skating at the age of 11. That seems really late for a competitive skater. So he started competing after only 2 years of skating. That seems pretty amazing to me. He has the potential to improve a lot.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 23, 2014

Jump said:
According to Wiki, Jin Seo Kim started skating at the age of 11. That seems really late for a competitive skater. So he started competing after only 2 years of skating. That seems pretty amazing to me. He has the potential to improve a lot.

Weir started at 12. He did alright.

Miss Ice · Apr 23, 2014

BusyMom said:
I admire your devotion to Julia. But here the thing, you always jump to attack people who dislike or comments on Julia with the wrong defensive logic (in this case for example). That was also very sad because it also involves other skaters. Of course her accomplish this year is looking good but she has too many flaws for many people care to like. She leaves too many doors open for people to criticize her skating including her personalities. Some people don't find her spiral and spins impressive because about 4-5 years ago there are a group of acrobatic/gymnastic typed of skaters from Russian showed up in JGP, some of them have more effortless position. Too bad back then Russian had Adelina and Tuk who had more superior jumps. So, of course, they didn't make it to the senior level. I leave my judgement to Julia for another few years. If she successfully avoids Caroline Zhang's Fate, that will be the right time to praise her.

This. Thank you. This is exactly what I have to say about all of the up-and-coming senior skaters next year. The hype has yet to be justified. And I am still not buying those inflated PCS.

Sara · Apr 23, 2014

Shoma Uno is brilliant! He looks very promising from an artistic point of view!

Artistically speaking I love Elena Radionova. Her FS from this season didn't convince me, it didn't suit her but the one from 2013-2014 was beautiful. She has so much potential! I'm also looking forward to see Sasha Proklova and Polina Edmunds next season. I find Sasha more interesting than the other 3 "new" Russian juniors Sakhanovic, Sotskova and Medvedeva.

Jombi said:
One of the most gifted and talented (artistically speaking) among the youngsters I believe is Shoma Uno

Here his SP at JW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSw1CdC3RMQ
Ex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idzi8ns1Ta0

Another skater I really enjoyed in saitama was Jin Seo Kim (17 years old)

LP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB5XnyCF6GA

Nice personality on the ice, lovely interpretation (especially in the second part of the LP). In the years to come he could be top ten material (at the condition of upgrading his technical content). I'll keep an eye on him!

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 23, 2014

Miss Ice said:
This. Thank you. This is exactly what I have to say about all of the up-and-coming senior skaters next year. The hype has yet to be justified. And I am still not buying those inflated PCS.

Are you just trying to stir up more drama.

Can we just keep this thread positive? There is so much good artistry among the kids to discuss.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 23, 2014

Sara said:
Shoma Uno is brilliant! He looks very promising from an artistic point of view!

Artistically speaking I love Elena Radionova. Her FS from this season didn't convince me, it didn't suit her but the one from 2013-2014 was beautiful. She has so much potential! I'm also looking forward to see Sasha Proklova and Polina Edmunds next season. I find Sasha more interesting than the other 3 "new" Russian juniors Sakhanovic, Sotskova and Medvedeva.

I'm with you on Radinova's FS. Maybe too flirty and adult? I started a thread entitled "Favorite SP" and I only claimed Elena Radinova. It was so moving. Easily the best music for me and she just exudes with confidence and powerful dance skills. She might be my new #2(sorry Yuna).

Serafima has jump issue but :yay: it's an artistry thread. No one can really touch her among the female youngsters. Insert any country. Her body and arms become the music. She still has some development but oh boy, she is going to be good with her turns edges, and flow :love:

Miss Ice · Apr 23, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
Are you just trying to stir up more drama.

Can we just keep this thread positive? There is so much good artistry among the kids to discuss.

Nope, I was saying that because that is what I truly believe. And I am not the only one with the opinion that these new talents have to yet grow and mature. What's wrong with saying that they still have to prove themselves?

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 23, 2014

I completely agree. If they weren't going to get better than they are now, well honestly..zzzzzzz.

Don't discount the x-factor that can not be taught and often invades the PCS. There are more than a few who posses it. :yay: Elena is one and I'm hoping maybe we will see it in Polina. What about Park So-Youn? She seemes to poses a spark inside familiar to most figure skating fans. Some scores will never be completley quantified on a protocol sheet. It has and will always be as such.

It was an olympic year and I think more than just a few Russians benefited from the hype. That is all.

Alba · Apr 23, 2014

mskater93 said:
I really mean I look at her skating with a more critical eye than I would if there were a lot of detractors to her skating. If she had a lot of detractors, I'd try and look for positives. Since everyone just is SO excited about her "artistry" I look at it more critically and, as I said, I am more on the fence regarding her style (don't think she's as good as some of her fans make her out to be yet, kinda like Mao when she was 15-16).

Well, we all love the underdog and when someone is overcriticised we tend to be defensive, and viceversa. I understand that very well.

As for Yulia's style I loved it, for various reasons. Do I think she has reached her maturity? Not at all.
I think people are excited (I'm not talking about the media, they always do overhype certain skater and overcriticise others) also because of her age and the "serious" (?) personality she seems to have. It makes her different, IMO.

@All: About the inflated PCS. The trend started some years ago, and it will go even higher. No point in whining now.

anonymous penguin · Apr 23, 2014

Inflated PCS is fine as long as it is inflated equally for everyone.

Also, the rise will eventually have to level off because there is a max score. If everyone is getting at least 8s on everything, there is little differentiating the skaters.

Alba · Apr 23, 2014

anonymous penguin said:
Inflated PCS is fine as long as it is inflated equally for everyone.

It never was and never will be equally fo everyone.

Also, the rise will eventually have to level off because there is a max score.

That's right. Don't know when though. :biggrin:

@All: I'm curious about something. Why do men receive like 80 PCS and over, and women don't?

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 23, 2014

The ISU isn't going to run out of numbers. Lol. (sarcasm) - please take it as such

Seriously speaking....isn't it pretty fairly inflated for all right now? It seems the scores for the 6th-15th placements are around 7's. Back in 2005 era I believe you would see scores like this amongst the ladies final flight. Am I way off here. I haven't been following that long and from the WC protocols I looked up(months back) I thought this was a common score among the best during that era.

TBH I think Scores are probably going to stay pretty similar to what we are currently seeing. They aren't maxed out yet and with next years top seeds like Lipnitskaya averaging around 8 there is plenty of room for them to improve and get what Mao,Yuna, and Caro were getting this year. Unfortunatley for some reputation now will play a part in what some youngters scores are next year. Fear not though. Maybe Lipnitskaya and others like Gracie will fall and crash a few programs and eventually get lower scores as their careers unfold. No one knows what the future holds. Maybe 10's become 12's and throws everything into chaos. My guess is they will just adjust the points of certain elements/components at some point. Who knows? @gkelly maybe?

karne · Apr 23, 2014

Alba said:
@All: I'm curious about something. Why do men receive like 80 PCS and over, and women don't?

The PCS are factored differently for men and women; I think it's 2.0 for men and 1.8 for women or something? I don't know why.

Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Meoima

Match Penalty

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

mskater93

Jombi

Meoima

Match Penalty

Jump

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~

Sara

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Alba

anonymous penguin

Alba

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

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