Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

mskater93 said:

SS, the more you defend, the more you make people cling staunchly to their opinion (kinda like sky and his/her Gracie nonsense). I have been on the fence about YL (wait and see; I felt the same way about Mao when she was that age when people were raving about her) but I am starting to dislike her with your constant defense and seemingly intentional misunderstanding of others' opinion. It's OK if other fans don't see her like you do. That's what makes skating great - that different skaters "speak" to different fans. If the same skater "spoke" to everyone, it'd be a boring world indeed. Heck, even Michelle Kwan didn't speak to everyone (as evidenced by the Lipinski and Cohen fan wars).

On a more on topic note, I believe Karen Chen has a great future if she can avoid (re)injury in terms of artistry along with Tessa Hong (Intermediate National Champion in the US in 2014, already working with Frank Carroll who actually CHOREOGRAPHED her programs this past season for her).

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We keep jumping in with these comments because many people instead of just saying you don't like "insert some sort of mild criticism of skater here" are actually being very insulting. Obviously I'm not including some people here who actually know how to say "I don't appreciate..." or "I don't respond to..." without resorting to unfair and untrue comments like "phony", "act", "emotionless", "robot", etc. when the proof is all around that it can't be true if so many other people are moved profoundly. It's unfair to denigrate our opinions and just say such opinions as if they are facts.

Oops, I posted this when I was several pages back. Now I see the topic has been done to death.

It's fine. To each their own right. I honestly got frustrated and admittedly was venting on a few posters I viewed as just fanning the flame. My intent was to compare merit by merit which skaters presented movements that touched people and at times compared to Yulia(via why she was so inferior) Instead I just got Yulia is "phony" or "pandering", to paraphrase a few. My passion clouded my approach. I see that. I love Elena and wound up looking as though I didn't due to different views on a simple definition. Oh well.

My take on Elena is one of superior brilliance in dance and movement. So maybe I don't find elegant dancing soulful. I guess I'm just that type of person. I had no idea it was so offensive to some. Believe me. It has been noted.

I give mention to @shine and @weakankles for expressing themselves with honest thoughtful criticism. That is the point of GS in my opinion.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Shall we turn our attention elsewhere? Anna Pogorilaya maybe?

Here is her SP at Junior worlds last year. Very slow and lacking much conviction. Egyptian like choreo You can see potential but it hasn't matured yet. More on par with where Polina is now. Young colt just learning the pasture.<thank you Weakankles> Hadn't yet grazed to the far fences.
http://youtu.be/n-D_Y0dBHjQ

And now at 2014 Senior Worlds
http://youtu.be/aiQfj9t5t6o

Wow. Speed is great and her arms seem to flow along in rhythm to each note of music with only a few minor lapses. Probably the best skating skills amongst the youngsters. I'm not getting a strong artistic/individual feel or take on the music. Instead I feel that she is like a powerful current that glides along the ice pulling everyone in with each turn. This is a different type of art. It really is a beautiful skate and while maybe lacking some originality there are many quality elements and feelings presented to keep most FS fans


Anna vs Polina would be a fitting rivalry. They skate similarly and as Polina matures she should be comparable in many ways.

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I'm going to quote myself because Anna was never really discussed and this may have just been lost in the heat of the battle. I think these videos show how someone can really progress in 1 year alone.

Sam-Skwantch said:

It's fine. Too each their own right. I honestly got frustrated and admittedly was venting on a few posters I viewed as just fanning the flame. My intent was to compare merit by merit which skaters presented movements that touched people and at times compared to Yulia(via why she was so inferior) Instead I just got Yulia is "phony" or "pandering", to paraphrase a few. My passion clouded my approach. I see that. I love Elena and wound up looking as though I didn't due to different views on a simple definition. Oh well.

My take on Elena is one of superior brilliance in dance and movement. So maybe I don't find elegant dancing soulful. I guess I'm just that type of person. I had no idea it was so offensive to some. Believe me. It has been noted.

I give mention to @shine and @weakankles for expressing themselves with honest thoughtful criticism. That is the point of GS in my opinion.

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Thank you for the compliment. It sure beats being called an opinionated beeyitch!

It is hard not to get caught up/swept away by emotions. There have been times I have typed out a real beeyitchy response. Then I usually just get up, walk to the kitchen, make a nice soothing cup of tea (in such cases only Peppermint or Earl Grey will do!) and then come back and delete it. It's cheaper than therapy (though perhaps less fun than a voodoo doll!).

The one team I think has HUGE potential artistically are Kaitlin Hawayek and Jean-Luc Baker. He in particular just impressed the bejesus out of me. Great edges and so relaxed! It was like the skating equivalent of early Bing Crosby's singing (when Bing was cool). And she improved astronomically over the course of a year. They've been together less than two years (!) Just amazing to me. I can only imagine how good they'll be in another two year's time.

Any specific programs I should look up? I usually focus on the ladies and admit my lack of insight into the depth of other disciplines. Very willing to learn.

Hawayek and Baker's FD was to the Amelie soundtrack. One thing I love to do is watch how a program progresses over the course of a year. She kept screwing up the twizzles until Junior Worlds! Their curve lift--a cantilever--I thought was even better than Voir's (it seemed surer and with a more pronounced curve). The US Nationals version was good--some glitches (those darn twizzles, to quote Tessa), but the World's version is just lovely to me. And their SD was a quickstep--can't remember the music off the top of my head. Very elegant. That was where I really thought Baker was just both technically sound and had a real kind of relaxed grace. Their previous FD was to Singin' in the Rain. It certainly is worth watching once, but it is nowhere near the level of Amelie. Not surprising since it was their first year together.

The team that took silver -- Russia's Anna Yanovskaia and Sergei Mozgov -- also impressed me for a different reason. If H/B are like an exquisite Leonardo DaVinci drawing, then Y/M are like a big Jackson Pollock action painting. Very dynamic and exciting. I said before on another thread that I would bet money they have studied Marlie's previous programs, particularly Samson and Phantom--they have that kind of raw, balls to the wall excitement about them. Their FD was to Alessandro Safina's "Il Mirtodella Rosa." Not my cup of tea musically (I find this relatively new trend in Russian skating to dance to technoclassical disheartening--what's wrong with the real thing baby?), but they have real presence on the ice (they're very tall for one thing--so watch their lines, which are quite good and are only going to get better with more experience). Their SD was also quite good, but not quite as classically elegant as H/B's. I can see how H/B's SD won the gold for them.

They aren't technically youngsters, but I thought the best choreographed program of all disciplines last year was Gilles & Poirier's Hitchcock FD. Within 30 (!) seconds, they establish theme (which is an unusual one for skating--how male artists manipulate and control the female muse, with a dash of Psycho male murderer/female victimology mixed in), define characters, and create an entire relationship. People were wowed--justly so--by their opening rotational lift, but right before it is what I think is the key choreographic move of the program: she attempts to skate away but he gives her a tug to pull her back and she shoots him a quick look. The whole program to me builds on that one key choreographic moment. Wonderful program.

^This^

...is the direction this thread should be going.

What do you think of Maria Vigalova(?) and Egor Zakroev. I started watching them for a completely shallow reason. I was looking up the protocols for the GPF and they when I scrolled down to check something on the Ladies one when I happened to see the podium picture for the JR pairs. Something about Maria's face was fascinating and I ended up watching their programs. They capture my attention despite the fact that I dislike some of their choreography and I'm indifferent to their music. Well, that's unfair. I think it's just the choreo, because there's something very interesting about their SP music.

SP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w1zWTlLkt8
LP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsGBmIXpDdE

Lambiel proved that Artistry, in some case, could happened without maturity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYmRyFkRj1A
His facial expression was priceless. He somehow managed to use the whole body to convey the music. His timing in choreograph was perfect too.

BusyMom said:

Lambiel proved that Artistry, in some case, could happened without maturity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYmRyFkRj1A
His facial expression was priceless. He somehow managed to use the whole body to convey the music. His timing in choreograph was perfect too.

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Lambiel is the definition of artistry in figure skating.

Meoima said:

Lambiel is the definition of artistry in figure skating.

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His fashion senses was in question though!

BusyMom said:

His fashion senses was in question though!

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Because he is so hot I can forgive his fashion sense.
Unlike Ilia Kulik.

Meoima said:

Because he is so hot I can forgive his fashion sense.
Unlike Ilia Kulik.

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What??? Kulik was hot too, back in the day.

BusyMom said:

What??? Kulik was hot too, back in the day.

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But Kulik had a much much worse fashion sense. Look at how soft his landing were, look at the weird things he chose to be his costumes. But since even Yagudin performed that One Banana program, I don't know if I can find any elite male skater that has never had a tedious phase with costume. :disapp:

Meoima said:

But Kulik had a much much worse fashion sense. Look at how soft his landing were, look at the weird things he chose to be his costumes. But since even Yagudin performed that One Banana program, I don't know if I can find any elite male skater that has never had a tedious phase with costume. :disapp:

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You can try ignoring the dress and focus on the skating parts. That work for me, since I love Daisuke so much I needed to find the solutions. http://mans-womans.com/daisuke-takahashi/daisuke-takahashi-9.html

Mrs. P said:

And Jason and Joshua at 14:

Try turning of the music when you watch Jason's FS. You will notice more the nuances and other bits of choreography he was already doing at such a young age. Joshua definitely was the more technical of the two back then.

Also I all think we need to share a drink. Yes I know we're chatting about underage kids, but come on, we're adults here (mostly): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jidziKYG9jk

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Joshua is still the more technical. His jumps are superior and he is closer to having a consistent quad. Poor thing keeps getting injured, though. They both have good IJS spins. Jason has more unorthodox positions which grab your attention instantly and can make you go "whoa."

Jason I don't think has ever landed two clean triple axels in one competition. I tend to appreciate Jason's programs more, from an ijs perspective. They are very difficult and expertly choreographed. He's a great performer.

Components said:

Jason I don't think has ever landed two clean triple axels in one competition. I tend to appreciate Jason's programs more, from an ijs perspective. They are very difficult and expertly choreographed. He's a great performer.

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He did so at junior worlds in 2013. Not surprisingly, his highest TES ever in the FS (81+) is from that competition. The closest he came this season was at U.S. Nationals and at the Olympics Team Event when he landed both of them but the second 3A was <.

Jason won't get very far if that issue isn't resolved but no doubt his programs are pretty awesome.

Mrs. P said:

He did so at junior worlds in 2013. Not surprisingly, his highest TES ever in the FS (81+) is from that competition. The closest he came this season was at U.S. Nationals and at the Olympics Team Event when he landed both of them but the second 3A was <.

Jason won't get very far if that issue isn't resolved but no doubt his programs are pretty awesome.

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Yes, and Josh landed a quad there IIRC. If Josh could skate cleanly he'd have been in Sochi, probably with Jason. The judges would have dumped abbot if they had another reliable option,

Components said:

Yes, and Josh landed a quad there IIRC. If Josh could skate cleanly he'd have been in Sochi, probably with Jason. The judges would have dumped abbot if they had another reliable option,

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Nope. Josh fell on his quad in the FS. In fact, Jason won the FS and beat Josh by a few points.

The only time Josh has landed a clean quad was at JGP Lake Placid in 2013. It's not a consistent jump for him yet.

I really love Satoko Miyahara's artistry; she's a really beautiful skater to watch!