Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?

Components said:

Age doesn't matter. It's when they Competed against each other.

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For me this is very "matter" - even 2.5 years younger, Plushenko overcame Yagudin... so his every victory is more valuable.

Components said:

Age can also affect Yagudin adversely. He was on the scene earlier wearing his body down.

It's not that big a deal. Yagudin was ranking will at 15 or 16 as well. So what?

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He is 2.5 years older, but he was competed only 2 years earlier than Plushenko.
I do not see that Yagudin in his 15, 16 years won any major international competition.... unlike Plushy.

Components said:

Yagudin won 3 World Championships in a Row and then Won the Olympics and another World Championship. He was also medaling on the World scene as early as the 97 Worlds where he won a Bronze. Aside from that Bronze and the Silver to Plushenko in 01, he won Gold at every other Worlds or Junior Worlds he competed against.

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- Plushenko won (as i said) his 1st Worlds medal, bronze in 15 - Yagudin same, in 17 years ... Plushy have only 1 gold medal less than Yagudin!
- Plushenko won 2 golds and 2 silvers at Olympics - Yagudin 1 gold 2002 and 5th place 1998
- Plushenko won 4 Grand Prix Finals and 18 GP - Yagudin 2 GPF and 12 GP
- Plushenko won 7 Europeans golds (and 3 silver medals) - Yagudin 3 golds (and 2 silver)
- Plushy won 10 Russian Nationals titles - Yagudin, none
...

In international competitions - Yagudin was competed 9 years, Plushenko 10 + 3 incomplete seasons.

Because the title of this topic: "Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?" - we are not talking here only about their "mutual score", but globally - who is the better skater.
So, in my view - I put forward enough evidences, why Plushenko is better

Components said:

And like I said before, Plushenko's packaging and programs were typically quite bad compared to Yagudin. Yagudin had issues technically and artistically. Neither of them were perfect. Later in his career Plushenko was a huge beneficiary of reputation scoring so I have a hard time really taking the later results seriously (Post-Turino) esp. WRT comparing them to what Yagudin did and against the skaters Yagudin had to skate against when he started medaling, before Plushenko burst on the scene as a seriously World Champion-level contender.

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This is your opinion, which is based on your sympathy and taste - mine is different.

Stop quoting me. Earlier in the thread I clearly stated plush was the better athlete. You're going crazy trying to make him seem spotless. I'm done with you and with this topic.

Components said:

Stop quoting me. Earlier in the thread I clearly stated plush was the better athlete. You're going crazy trying to make him seem spotless. I'm done with you and with this topic.

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Why do I should to stop quoting you?

... and I ended with my arguments - the case is closed

plushyta said:

Why do I should to stop quoting you?

... and I ended with my arguments - the case is closed

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Because it is sending me push notifications to my phone, and I asked you to stop it.

I don't care about getting the last word. Enjoy that shallow victory. I only care that you understand that I'm done conversing about it, because it's a circular argument and you're too up tight and defensive to make it worth my time.

Some common courtesy would be appreciated. Or I'll ignore you. I told you before I wasn't up to debating. Your tone is toxic.

Really? I dont turn on this feature

Yes, arguments can sometimes be toxic

I use Tapatalk and this isn't the only forum I access from it. It's installed on both my phone and my PC, so yes push notifications pop up on both of them.

And discussions/topics are *never toxic*, only the personalities which engage in them.

Regardless of the topic, there is always room for civil discussion, but I have made it a point that I won't engage on that level with those personalities on this forum. Nothing ever comes of it and it's ceased to be entertaining.

it seems somebody thinks Plushy is better,soembody thinks Yag is better... but Plushy is more famous no doubt..

"The Neighbourhood’s" an American altenative-rock band... they used Plushy's "Sex Bomb" for their new music clip

The Neighbourhood’s “Lurk” Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKP-y8as5v4 :agree:

fresh news...

plushyfan said:

"The Neighbourhood’s" an American altenative-rock band... but they used Plushy's "Sex Bomb" for their new music clip

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That's so cool, Plushyfan!

Plushyfan, I am quite willing to finish the discussion on the topic. While you claim to admire Yagudin as a skater, the attacking on this thread seems to be mostly from Plushenko fans. Yagudin fans have generally given Plushenko his due in this thread. I neither know nor care about what happened in previous threads on the same or a similar topic. I'm certainly willing to let this go and let bygones be bygones.

Plushenko has had the better career, but at their best Yagudin is the better overall skater in terms of total package.

People obviously shouldn't be bringing up low blows like Yagudin's alcohol problems and things like that. That has nothing to do with being the better skater. It'd be like saying Plushenko is a better skater because he has more money/cars. Focus on the actual things done on the ice.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Plushenko has had the better career, but at their best Yagudin is the better overall skater in terms of total package.

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Yagudin isn't better CSG! Yagudin isn't better spiner, isn't better jumper, isn't better artistically... but Plushy has better career. I'm not surprised because of your opinion..you are one of the most devoted Plushenko haters on this forum. And I'm wouldn't be surprised if you are a lawyer ...you are using your arguments not correct way..

Panpie said:

Plushyfan, I am quite willing to finish the discussion on the topic. While you claim to admire Yagudin as a skater, the attacking on this thread seems to be mostly from Plushenko fans. Yagudin fans have generally given Plushenko his due in this thread. I neither know nor care about what happened in previous threads on the same or a similar topic. I'm certainly willing to let this go and let bygones be bygones.

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:thumbsup:

pangtongfan said:

I actually agree Yagudin at his best is the better overall skater. However he has his weaknesses too, and isnt the perfect skater some potray him. He has pretty bad posture, much worse than someone like Plushenko who actually has quite nice back and posture. His spins are adequate and good but not anything to write him about, and no better than Plushenko's, if not slightly worse. He is a great jumper, and has some huge jumps and a huge triple axel, but in addition to being a bit behind Plushenko in consistency (still ahead of 99% of others), he also doesnt hold the landings as long as he could at times and show the same control Plushenko, Boitano and some other great jumpers do regularly on their jumps. Dick Button spoke of that when discussing him. While he developed into a very artistic skater who is a master of bringing dramatic music to life, it is not he is a classic ballet type skater with the best lines, positions, or style either, the way you would say about a John Curry, Robin Cousins, Viktor Petrenko, Stephane Lambiel, Jeff Buttle either.

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I'm definitely not as technically savvy as you are by a longshot, but what you say makes a lot of sense to me. One thing I notice about Yagudin is that, like Stojko, he doesn't have the ideal body type for the ballet type skating you describe. He's small and rather stocky, and his limbs aren't long, though he compensates artistically far more than Stojko ever did or wanted to. Of course, this isn't the entire answer, but the skaters you mention--Curry, Cousins, Petrenko, Lambiel, and Buttle, all have bodies that are far better proportioned to show the balletic lines. And so does Plushenko. He doesn't have a classically handsome face, but he does have a classically harmonious body, and he maximizes this asset by emphasizing carriage and posture.

On the other hand, Yagudin has a quality that I noticed in Baryshnikov, which is an almost organic connection to the music and the emotional quality of a program. I remember the first time I ever watched Baryshnikov and the first time I ever watched Rudolf Nureyev. I felt like such a Philistine watching Nureyev, because he didn't appeal to me. I found his style rather fussy and overblown. (I later came to appreciate him far better, thank goodness.) By contrast, Baryshnikov got to me right away, with an almost informal fluidity, as if he'd been born being able to move like that. This is the impression I received from Yagudin, and it's a large part of his appeal to me. Of course, his jumps, footwork, and other technical achievements add to the effect!

So neither of these skaters is perfect, but both are extraordinary, far more than the sum of their parts.

I think “better” and “greater” is different. To me plushenko is the better one and has a greater career. I enjoy the footwork of both and will give plushy a nod in skating skill and jump. Neither of they are spin expert as Lambiel. Artistry is very subjective. I believe yagudin has around 20 perfect 6.0 scores. And plushenko, even without the 6.0 in national cup, is around 40. Yagudin’s record of 6.0 in Olympics is more impressive and he did provide two of the greatest programs in Olympics history. But Plushenko’s record shows that he has his own style although some people may not buy it. By the way, Michelle Kwan has 57 6.0 scores, including 35 from national cup. And she has a longer career than plushenko under 6.0 system. I enjoy most of their programs (yagudin from 1999-2003, plushenko from 2000 to 2005 plus tango in 2012 euro). But if i have to choose only one, i will say “tribute to nijinski” touch me the most.

Although i always prefer plushenko, I do believe his longevity is a great advantage. Titles and records speak for themselves. I don’t think if the same question raised in 2006, there would be so many people on plushenko’s side.

My answer is a simple:NO.
Yagudin at his best was far better than Plushenko at his own best.

plushyfan said:

Yagudin isn't better CSG! Yagudin isn't better spiner, isn't better jumper, isn't better artistically... but Plushy has better career. I'm not surprised because of your opinion..you are one of the most devoted Plushenko haters on this forum. And I'm wouldn't be surprised if you are a lawyer ...you are using your arguments not correct way..

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Um, that is my opinion. Just as you are entitled to yours. Which is fine, I'm not surprised about your opinion as you are one of the most devoted Plushenko ubers on this forum.

Plenty of people here are sharing my opinion, in fact, more than those who say Plushenko is the better skater. The argument is, if Plushenko's better career makes him the better skater, and I think going by a general, "all-around" definition of "better skater" (as in who is the better all-around skater when both are at their best), the majority so far have said Yagudin.

Actually, if you count it up so far, 20 posters have said Yagudin is the better skater, and 10 have said Plushenko is the better skater.

If Plushenko was better than Yagudin at all of those things you've said, why didn't he win their biggest head-to-head, the 2002 Olympics? http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG002.HTM Yagudin received 1st place ordinals from all 9 judges in both segments.

I don't get all the raves about Nijinski. I think it was St Petersburg 300 2.0. SP300 is still his best program IMO. When I was first discovered Plush in '98 Euros, I thought he had the potential to become a great artist. It didn't happen because he was so technically superior in his jumps in comparison to 99% of the competitors out there. He didn't need to develop what he already had to win. Then all the game and glory got to his head and he never really had the incentive to transform himself. He lacked a genuine emotional connection to the music, and his most dramatic moves were histrionic pretenses of passion. It wasn't real.

When Yagudin skated Winter, it was true passion. It was transcendent. It was his potential realized.

In men's skating history, I still think the greatest rivalry was between Yagudin and Plush. None of the others in previous and subsequent years came close to that sort of rivalry.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Actually, if you count it up so far, 20 posters have said Yagudin is the better skater, and 10 have said Plushenko is the better skater.

If Plushenko was better than Yagudin at all of those things you've said, why didn't he win their biggest head-to-head, the 2002 Olympics? http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG002.HTM Yagudin received 1st place ordinals from all 9 judges in both segments.

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For even 10 out of 30 posters to claim Plushenko is the better skater (not just the better competitor) is evidence their abilities as skaters are probably very close. Any other combination of two skaters, and the gap would probably be more, even ones who are reasonably in the same league. Anyway it is not like 30 posters on some random internet forum is some highly viable barometer to what the majority of people in the world believe.

I love how you pick a competition where Yagudin skated the best he ever has, and Plushenko was injured (and would miss worlds with the same injury) and skated at about 60% of his full potential. You even argue Goebel deserved to beat him at those Games, so that pretty much sums up how far off his potential Plushenko was there. Why not compare Yagudin and Plushenko at the 2001 worlds, as it was similarily lopsided, and would be equally as ridiculous.

The question you posed applies even more to you. I love how you keep acting like Yagudin was in a way higher league as a skater than Plushenko and anyone who dares say otherwise is crazy. If Yagudin was SO superior to Plushenko, how did he lose so many competitions to him from 2000-2002, in fact probably over half of the times they met those three years. It is not like Yagudin is some headcase who lost to Plushenko by various meltdowns, he is one of the strongest competitors in the history of figure skating as well. You wouldnt ever think Plushenko was by FAR Yagudin's most (and only) feared rival at his peak, and beat him in many competitions, and rarely lost by much even when he didnt by reading your posts. Then again anyone who reads you saying a clean Joubert would beat a clean Plushenko in his prime, or Lambiel with a triple axel would crush a clean Plushenko in the mid 2000s, and they would just assume you confused Plushenko with another skater, that nobody could really be that delusional.

CarneAsada said:

Yagudin won most of their head-to-heads at the big competitions and seems to be the more beloved one in English-speaking forums, but Plushenko continued and dominated while Yagudin got injured and retired. Do you consider Plushenko greater than Yagudin?

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No. Not really even close actually. They were both technically superior but Yagudin was far more the "total package" combining the athletic skill with the artistic element in a seamless style that Plushenko could never grasp.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Um, that is my opinion. Just as you are entitled to yours. Which is fine, I'm not surprised about your opinion as you are one of the most devoted Plushenko ubers on this forum.

Plenty of people here are sharing my opinion, in fact, more than those who say Plushenko is the better skater. The argument is, if Plushenko's better career makes him the better skater, and I think going by a general, "all-around" definition of "better skater" (as in who is the better all-around skater when both are at their best), the majority so far have said Yagudin.

Actually, if you count it up so far, 20 posters have said Yagudin is the better skater, and 10 have said Plushenko is the better skater.

If Plushenko was better than Yagudin at all of those things you've said, why didn't he win their biggest head-to-head, the 2002 Olympics? http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG002.HTM Yagudin received 1st place ordinals from all 9 judges in both segments.

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CSG! You can say whatever you want, but the figure skating history is on Plushenko's side. I told you if anybody will see the lexicon will know Evgeni Plushenko was the best skater in the past II.World War era !!! Nobody will remember that was another skater who was a "little bit" better as some people thought in the world. Who is better singer Rhianna, or Lady Gaga? Who is better actor Al Pacino or Robert de Niro? Both are great, as Plushy and Yag.

Plushenko's results his impact on Figure skating much greater as Yagudin's. Plushenko has more title, Plushenko was the innovator( 4-3-2, 4-3-3, Bielman spin, Bielman spiral, donut spin), he has more 6.0s thus he was the more artistry and more perfect..other opinions are just personal tastes.. He was the youngest male skater ever who won medal in WCH, he was the youngest male skater ever who received perfect scores for his presentation... What are your real arguments?

You can't denie it. I'm sure if Plushenko would have received that support from the beginnig of his career like in Sochi then wouldn't be question who is the better skater.. After Sochi when the NBC and other american press praised him thousand of American fs fans sent Plushy really nice posts. That was so funny for me..He got many new fans from US. And many of them wrote in 2010 they were Lysacek' side but they didn't know how great Plushy is. He inspires many skater. For example do you think that is only a coincidence that many "old" skaters participated in Sochi? (Dai, Abbott, Joubert) And they are thinking about the continue..

pangtongfan said:

For even 10 out of 30 posters to claim Plushenko is the better skater (not just the better competitor) is evidence their abilities as skaters are probably very close. Any other combination of two skaters, and the gap would probably be more, even ones who are reasonably in the same league. Anyway it is not like 30 posters on some random internet forum is some highly viable barometer to what the majority of people in the world believe.

I love how you pick a competition where Yagudin skated the best he ever has, and Plushenko was injured (and would miss worlds with the same injury) and skated at about 60% of his full potential. You even argue Goebel deserved to beat him at those Games, so that pretty much sums up how far off his potential Plushenko was there. Why not compare Yagudin and Plushenko at the 2001 worlds, as it was similarily lopsided, and would be equally as ridiculous.

The question you posed applies even more to you. I love how you keep acting like Yagudin was in a way higher league as a skater than Plushenko and anyone who dares say otherwise is crazy. If Yagudin was SO superior to Plushenko, how did he lose so many competitions to him from 2000-2002, in fact probably over half of the times they met those three years. It is not like Yagudin is some headcase who lost to Plushenko by various meltdowns, he is one of the strongest competitors in the history of figure skating as well. You wouldnt ever think Plushenko was by FAR Yagudin's most (and only) feared rival at his peak, and beat him in many competitions, and rarely lost by much even when he didnt by reading your posts. Then again anyone who reads you saying a clean Joubert would beat a clean Plushenko in his prime, or Lambiel with a triple axel would crush a clean Plushenko in the mid 2000s, and they would just assume you confused Plushenko with another skater, that nobody could really be that delusional.

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CSG will never change.. Yagudin is more popular here. But if you see the whole world Plushenko is more more popularand the people think he is the best skater ever. They don't think about transitions etc. , they just love his skating and admire his results. Some interesting details:
Plushenko 141 000 likes on Facebook- Yagudin 7000
Twitter: 229 000 followers- 16.100
Plushenkonews on twitter 10.700- Alexei news-212

Plushenko's personality inspires many musicians, artists. If you follow the Plushenkonews or read his website would know it..so many fanmontages on Youtube, poets, draws, photomontages... http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=151&start=510

I think this is the most funny thing on Plushy what I ever seen..If you know his programs and costumes and his relatonships with some people you will laugh so hard. Tribute to Plushenko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ6C9tpjhdw

BlackPack said:

I don't get all the raves about Nijinski. I think it was St Petersburg 300 2.0. SP300 is still his best program IMO. When I was first discovered Plush in '98 Euros, I thought he had the potential to become a great artist. It didn't happen because he was so technically superior in his jumps in comparison to 99% of the competitors out there. He didn't need to develop what he already had to win. Then all the game and glory got to his head and he never really had the incentive to transform himself. He lacked a genuine emotional connection to the music, and his most dramatic moves were histrionic pretenses of passion. It wasn't real.

When Yagudin skated Winter, it was true passion. It was transcendent. It was his potential realized.

In men's skating history, I still think the greatest rivalry was between Yagudin and Plush. None of the others in previous and subsequent years came close to that sort of rivalry.

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Can you explane me why he received 75 6.0s if he wasn't artistry? Not to mention Plushenko is the favorite skater of Maya Plisetskaya and Nikolai Tsiskaridze. Both are among the greatest ballet dancers of the 20th century.

The Nijinsky program is very popular ..Many people think that is pure magic, perfection..