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Thread: Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    For even 10 out of 30 posters to claim Plushenko is the better skater (not just the better competitor) is evidence their abilities as skaters are probably very close. Any other combination of two skaters, and the gap would probably be more, even ones who are reasonably in the same league. Anyway it is not like 30 posters on some random internet forum is some highly viable barometer to what the majority of people in the world believe.

    I love how you pick a competition where Yagudin skated the best he ever has, and Plushenko was injured (and would miss worlds with the same injury) and skated at about 60% of his full potential. You even argue Goebel deserved to beat him at those Games, so that pretty much sums up how far off his potential Plushenko was there. Why not compare Yagudin and Plushenko at the 2001 worlds, as it was similarily lopsided, and would be equally as ridiculous.

    The question you posed applies even more to you. I love how you keep acting like Yagudin was in a way higher league as a skater than Plushenko and anyone who dares say otherwise is crazy. If Yagudin was SO superior to Plushenko, how did he lose so many competitions to him from 2000-2002, in fact probably over half of the times they met those three years. It is not like Yagudin is some headcase who lost to Plushenko by various meltdowns, he is one of the strongest competitors in the history of figure skating as well. You wouldnt ever think Plushenko was by FAR Yagudin's most (and only) feared rival at his peak, and beat him in many competitions, and rarely lost by much even when he didnt by reading your posts. Then again anyone who reads you saying a clean Joubert would beat a clean Plushenko in his prime, or Lambiel with a triple axel would crush a clean Plushenko in the mid 2000s, and they would just assume you confused Plushenko with another skater, that nobody could really be that delusional.
    Goebel should have won the TM mark in the SLC FS. Yagudin clearly owned the second mark. Plushenko should have been below Goebel in TM but slightly higher in presentation. I still don't understand how Goebel lost to Plushenko in SLC outside or Reputation scoring, especially with the mistake he (Plushenko) made in the SP, which would have had any other skater lower than 4th place (judges gave Slutskaya similar help in 1998 to keep her in contention, FTR).

    And there's no way for Plushenko to match Goebel Technically. Goebel's spins were better than Plushenko's (better positions, speed, and center, even) and what he did in the air hasn't been matched in Olympic competition since SLC - not by anyone, even Plushenko. None of those guys had amazing skating skills.

    Plushenko and Yagudin only had one consistent Quad, so the most they could do was 2. The fact that Yagudin was able to water his technical content down and still score has high as he did in TM compared to Goebel (and even Plushenko) pretty much shows how bad of a scoring system 6.0 was. The scoring in SLC was pretty terrible across all disciplines.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by nafsf View Post
    Because Plushenko is not matured and good enough to beat yagudin in 2002 Olympics, just as yagudin is not good enough to beat plushenko in 2001. If yagudin is so good, why he lost to Ilia Kulik, Elvis Stojko and Philippe Candeloro in 1998? Does it mean he is worse than these guys? I believe you will tell me the same answer: he lost because he is not matured and good enough at that time.
    Yagudin was skating with the Flu in 1998. I think he beat a number of those guys at the World Championships prior to that, which pretty much invalidates your claims about being mature or good enough in 1998.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I think you overrate Goebel in this case. Yes he did three quads, but his triple axels and triple lutzes are both ugly and small, and he also stepped out of one of the triple axels. Plushenko had 2 quads, but his triple axels absolutely destroy Goebel, and he did a triple axel into a triple flip and gorgeous 2nd triple axel, vs Tim's one clean little triple axel and the other attempt he stepped out of. Plushenko also attempted the super hard quad-triple-triple and made a great attempt at it, just two footing the 2nd jump. Yagudin's skate and all his jumps were clean as a whistle and the quality of his jumps (besides maybe the quads) and his footwork was far above Goebel's. As for spins, I would say all 3 were of a similar level, all good, not excellent. Plushenko compensates for his lesser quality in some spins by doing the Biellman which is super hard for a man. Yagudin has a huge death drop and adequate quality on all his spins. Goebel has a good sit spin, but his camel spin isnt good, and he doesnt do many unique or interesting positions.
    He stepped out of one axel after catching an edge in, IIRC, a spread eagle entrance (a transition Plushenko would never attempt going into his jumps). I'll have to rewatch to confirm. Goebel does a number of his jumps out of transitions, while skaters like Yagudin and Plushenko telegraphed more.

    I'm not sure you can call what Plushenko did a Biellmann. His spinning wasn't that good, at all.

    In 6.0, contorting your body and possibly injuring yourself in the process was not a focus. Not even the women were really doing that, apart from a few (Slutskaya, Cohen for example).

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    He did not beat a number of those guys. The 3 Olympic medalists all skipped worlds, and he never would have beaten Kulik or a healthy Stojko had they entered, especialy the way he skated there. The only guy he beat who beat him at the Olympics was Eldredge and that was only due to Todd's fall in the short program leaving him too far back, as Todd had all 1st place ordinals in the LP. At the grand prix final that same year he was also 4th behind Kulik, Stojko, and Eldredge. He didnt beat Kulik or Stojko at all that season.

    Yagudin had no hope of the OGM in Nagano so previous poster is right he wasnt mature or good enough yet. A medal maybe if he skated his best, mostly due to all the mistakes and Stojko's injury.
    Yagudin was injured at 1997 Worlds and Sick at 1998 Olympics. He was basically injured his entire career.

    Someone with decent spins and all triples + a quad not good enough? Seriously? But Stojko is? I want to laugh.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    He stepped out of one axel after catching an edge in, IIRC, a spread eagle entrance (a transition Plushenko would never attempt going into his jumps). I'll have to rewatch to confirm. Goebel does a number of his jumps out of transitions, while skaters like Yagudin and Plushenko telegraphed more.

    I'm not sure you can call what Plushenko did a Biellmann. His spinning wasn't that good, at all.

    In 6.0, contorting your body and possibly injuring yourself in the process was not a focus. Not even the women were really doing that, apart from a few (Slutskaya, Cohen for example).
    Yeah, and under 6.0 there wasn't a "transition" mark and spins didn't matter much anyway. If spins did, then Stojko called and would like his gold medal back.

    Whether you like his Biellmann or not, for a long time, he was the only man who could do it. Definitely impressed the judges more than Goebel's at any rate.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Yeah, and under 6.0 there wasn't a "transition" mark and spins didn't matter much anyway. If spins did, then Stojko called and would like his gold medal back.
    Whether you like his Biellmann or not, for a long time, he was the only man who could do it. Definitely impressed the judges more than Goebel's at any rate.
    when did Plushy stop doing the Biellmann?

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    when did Plushy stop doing the Biellmann?
    IRRC, his last Biellmann was Worlds 2005 SP (Moonlight Sonata), when he was 22. The one where he fell on the quad and later had to withdraw (and eventually got groin surgery). In retrospect, can't believe he did the Biellmann on a groin injury. You can find the video on Youtube (assuming it hasn't been deleted since I last saw it).

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    IRRC, his last Biellmann was Worlds 2005 SP (Moonlight Sonata), when he was 22. The one where he fell on the quad and later had to withdraw (and eventually got groin surgery). In retrospect, can't believe he did the Biellmann on a groin injury. You can find the video on Youtube (assuming it hasn't been deleted since I last saw it).
    He should have got rid of it when he was 19. I hope Hanyu won't do Biellmann next season. No matter how flexible they are, I only feel uncomfortable when men do Biellmann. Let the ladies do it, boys!

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    He should have got rid of it when he was 19. I hope Hanyu won't do Biellmann next season. No matter how flexible they are, I only feel uncomfortable when men do Biellmann. Let the ladies do it, boys!
    I have to disagree! Plush's Biellmann is iconic. It's the reason I (and others who don't always follow FS very actively) remembered him for all these years. I watched Salt Lake, but I was really young at the time. Didn't really remember anyone but Plush because of his Biellmann (I've since rewatched it, and I love Yagudin's performances as well, of course). I was more into the women back then anyway. Couldn't bear to watch anything Torino live because I was so heartbroken over Michelle Kwan's WD (and basically stopped watching FS altogether for a long time). When I watched Vancouver with my mother, and Plush came on, my mother's like, "That's the kid from Salt Lake!" Me: "What?" Mother: "The one who did the Biellmann." Me: "Oh, he was wonderful! ...Wait, he's still competing?!"

    (this is way off topic, sorry)

  10. #160
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    I love it when men do Biellmann spins. I really dislike the idea that any skater should limit themselves, or skate a certain way, because of their gender...whatever style they feel comfortable with is what they should use. Period.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I have to disagree! Plush's Biellmann is iconic.
    I know, but it's bad for their bodies so I hope they will stop as soon as possible. Everytime they do Biellmann, I feel kinda worried and uncomfortable. Women are more flexible, but even some don't do Biellmann because of their back problem. Example: Yuna.

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    Okay, yeah, you do have a point. I wonder how far Plush could've gone if he'd stopped the Biellmann at 20. But I really don't want to imagine a world where Plush never did the Biellmann at all.

    Also, let's face it--figure skating is bad for the body. Quads are bad for the body. Triples are bad for the body. High-risk sport at competition level is bad for the body. There's no way injuries can be avoided entirely unless we go back to figures.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Yagudin was skating with the Flu in 1998. I think he beat a number of those guys at the World Championships prior to that, which pretty much invalidates your claims about being mature or good enough in 1998.
    Yagudin skated a cleam program without flu in his sp and was placed 4th in Nagano, the same place as Plushenko in 2002 SLC. He had no chance to win if Kulik made a clean LP. And the latter did. It's easy to admit that he is not as good as the other guys in 1998, but it doesn't mean he is less than them overall. Yagudin didn't win any champion in 1996 and 1997 season when he was only 16 and still very young. Plushenko didn't win any champion in 1997 and 1998 seasons when he is 15. It's not a shame and doesn't mean they are less than the others. they just need time to grow up and mature their technique and performance.

    by the way, I think we may forget about injury and sick. Almost all the athletes have injures and may experience sick, sometime, somewhere. It's a pity, but it's their own problem, not the other's fault. they should handle it and provide good performance. If they couldn't, they just lost. These guys are great because they fight and win with or without injure. Plushenko skated with injuries in 2014, if Russian lost the team gold because he bombed in SP and LP, I don't think the fact "he skated with serious injury" would add much on his greatness (at least I won't think so).

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallavich View Post
    I love it when men do Biellmann spins. I really dislike the idea that any skater should limit themselves, or skate a certain way, because of their gender...whatever style they feel comfortable with is what they should use. Period.
    If you can do a Biellmann like Michael Christian Martinez have at it. If your Biellmann is terrible then don't. In Gymnastics we call that chucking. Meaning you're putting your body at risk doing stuff you have no business doing for points. It was an unnecessary risk and I wouldn't be surprised if he's had back issues because of it.

    There's nothing iconic about a terrible Biellmann. It looks painful and doesn't breed excitement.

    They could barely get their foot over their head in the position, if at all.

    I hope Hanyu stops it, cause he looks like he's gonna die after a program without it already. It's not worth it and there are easier ways to get a Level 4 spin with less potential long term issues associated with it.

    And by long term I mean when they're 50 and not skating for medals do they want arthritis in their backs or not.

    There are many skaters who retired with few health issues and they were at the forefront of difficulty during their eras. Most of the skaters who have issues post retirement do so because of over training or bad mechanics on elements, not simply because they were doing quads. Boitano and Browning, Petrenko, and others seem fine. Urmanov too.

  15. #165
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    So because you, one person, didn't like his Biellmann, it's not iconic? Or, for that matter, it's not a Biellmann at all? I think Alexei Yagudin's triple axel looks heavy and laboured on the landings, so that means Alexei shouldn't do triple axels, and in fact, he never did any triple axels at all? Oh, and Mao should stop trying triple axels, since they're often underrotated and she can't do them as well as Midori Ito.

    Plush was the first man ever to do the Biellmann in senior competition, and for a long time, the only one. He wasn't competing against some fictional Michael Christian Martinez who also had Yagudin's jump content. The Biellmann is what me, and many people, remember him for. You don't have to like his Biellmann (see: Meoima's post), but that doesn't mean he didn't do it. He did what no man in the world could do at the time.

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