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Thread: Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallavich View Post
    This American greatly prefers Plushenko. And I do not think he is, or ever was, just a jumping machine. To me, that would be someone like Tim Goebel. Plushy is capable of interpreting a wide variety of music; he's done some truly out-there programs in shows and exhibitions that are in my mind, pure art. From traditional Russian folk, to beat-boxing, to whatever "Asisai" is. There are many different ways to express art, and who is to say that one is more valid than any other?
    Another American here, who agrees completely. Timothy Goebel was the epitome of jumps with nothing else in between, no choregraphy, no charisma, no nothing.

    Plushy's Je Suis Malade program is another exhibition program that was fantastic. I thought for the most part all of the programs he did throughout his career (exhibition and otherwise) were very well done. He really started to hit his stride in 99-00 with the Dark Eyes Program (one of my favorites), Once Upon A Time In America 00-01 was fantastic as was Njinsky (03-04), St. Petersburg 300 (02-03) etc., I wasn't a big fan of Godfather and I thought the beginning of Carmen started off strong, but the program lost steam at the end due to the choice of the music cuts. Still both were memorable programs IMO.

    With regards to Yagudin, he was a great skater and competitor. He certainly pushed Plushy as he did him, but I never warmed up to him or his skating.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallavich View Post
    This American greatly prefers Plushenko. And I do not think he is, or ever was, just a jumping machine. To me, that would be someone like Tim Goebel. Plushy is capable of interpreting a wide variety of music; he's done some truly out-there programs in shows and exhibitions that are in my mind, pure art. From traditional Russian folk, to beat-boxing, to whatever "Asisai" is. There are many different ways to express art, and who is to say that one is more valid than any other?

    If he was nothing but a jumper, I would not be a fan. As for Yagudin, I got off on the wrong foot with him by watching the execrable "One Banana" program and I don't think I'll ever get that image out of my head. You can't say Plushenko ever did anything as straight-up offensive as that.
    Have you seen Sex Bomb?

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    >>If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young. <<

    Plushenko is injured, too, so I guess his technique was not perfect? People get injuries for all sorts of reasons. Skating is just hard on the hips and knees, period.

    Sorry, maybe it's because I'm new here, but I'm not getting all the negativity toward Yagudin and the defensiveness I detect from some of those who prefer Plushenko. I mean, "0" innovations for Yagudin? Really? Americans/North Americans were swayed by Tarasova and the media to favor Yagudin? Really? Is it really so difficult to understand that some people may have valid reasons for preferring Yagudin over Plushenko?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    but Yagudin I would consider more of an artist and Plushenko more of a performer. As far as posture goes, I'm not a fan of Plushenko's hunch as he strokes around. His jump technique on his quad wasn't vastly superior to Yagudin's, and I actually prefer Yagudin's axel. Plushenko was however MUCH more ambitious than Yagudin when it came to jumps and jump combos. If you look where their priorities lie, Plushenko's was to rail off the big jumps (which got rather predictable/formulaic) and then get into the program, whereas Yagudin presented a complete skate, technically/artistically/choreographically, from start to finish. You can even tell from their starting movements what type of skater each one was -- Yagudin gets into the music & character of the program, while Plushenko immediately strokes around and powers into his first quad.
    If Yagudin was such an artist, how do you explain the fact that he wasn't able to produce any memorable programs since he has retired?
    John Curry, Kurt Browning, Lambiel, Takahashi are truly artistic skaters. Yagudin was lucky that Tarasova packed him well but his artistry is totally overrated as his professional career proves.
    Plushenko does not hunch when he strokes; actually his crossovers are amongst the best ever and his jumps in his prime were superb with great air positions, were high, light and had great landings.
    People tend to forget that Plushenko is 31 y.o and his jumps have deteriorated a lot.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    Not as offensive as the banana, but the juxtaposition of the baby and sex bomb numbers is the stuff of nightmares for me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54SUTu5_Ez4

    (and this isn't the worse incarnation there was another where he was in an actual baby carriage.... brrrrrrrrr)
    both are awful... But I adore the original Sex Bomb.. and I'm not alone.. The original has millions of viewers on Youtube. plus

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMIErbpN_ys Evgeni Plushenko - Pony Bomb Routine Idon'tknow the music but very popular I think..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKP-y8as5v4 this is from yesterday, I don't know wath music is this but the "The Neighbourhood" group used Plushy's sex bomb video

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panpie View Post
    >>If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young. <<

    Plushenko is injured, too, so I guess his technique was not perfect? People get injuries for all sorts of reasons. Skating is just hard on the hips and knees, period.

    Sorry, maybe it's because I'm new here, but I'm not getting all the negativity toward Yagudin and the defensiveness I detect from some of those who prefer Plushenko. I mean, "0" innovations for Yagudin? Really? Americans/North Americans were swayed by Tarasova and the media to favor Yagudin? Really? Is it really so difficult to understand that some people may have valid reasons for preferring Yagudin over Plushenko?
    Plushenko had many injuries because he worked so hard and because as Plushy said in a new interview the medical background was not available at the time for the highest levels of Russian athletes . A lot of injuries could have been prevented.

    Yes 0 innovations, because he didn't do anything at first in Fs history..maybe his memorable footwork in Winter. And if you are a new fs fan you don't know the Yagudin vs Plushenko story. After Yagudin's story in the North-American media Plushenko became the russian communist evil..Plus Yagudin told the media he couldn't win Rus Nat champion title, because the Rus Fed didn't like him. Butif you see the programs the protocols, Plushenko was technically superior compared Yagudin in those competitions. The Rus Nat 1998 was a little bit questionable, both skaters gave the same performances.

    You can prefer Yagudin, of course, but the question was who is the better skater and why thus your arguments must be reasonable. Or you can say "I prefer Yagudin, because I like his style"..

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    Quote Originally Posted by amber68 View Post
    If Yagudin was such an artist, how do you explain the fact that he wasn't able to produce any memorable programs since he has retired?
    John Curry, Kurt Browning, Lambiel, Takahashi are truly artistic skaters. Yagudin was lucky that Tarasova packed him well but his artistry is totally overrated as his professional career proves.
    Plushenko does not hunch when he strokes; actually his crossovers are amongst the best ever and his jumps in his prime were superb with great air positions, were high, light and had great landings.
    People tend to forget that Plushenko is 31 y.o and his jumps have deteriorated a lot.
    Wow. Thanks for proving my point.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panpie View Post
    >>If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young. <<

    Plushenko is injured, too, so I guess his technique was not perfect? People get injuries for all sorts of reasons. Skating is just hard on the hips and knees, period.

    Sorry, maybe it's because I'm new here, but I'm not getting all the negativity toward Yagudin and the defensiveness I detect from some of those who prefer Plushenko. I mean, "0" innovations for Yagudin? Really? Americans/North Americans were swayed by Tarasova and the media to favor Yagudin? Really? Is it really so difficult to understand that some people may have valid reasons for preferring Yagudin over Plushenko?
    I tend to agree to an extent that Yagudin wasn't actually very artistic. All of his "great" programs - Man in the Iron Mask, Gladiator - were effectively the same - big, bombastic, dramatic movie scores about brave heroes. Kind of easy to go with when you're constantly playing the same character, and of course, it was the same character that the Americans loved.

    Plushenko's range of character was certainly greater.

    I'm trying to remember a quote from Mishin that I saw a long time ago. He spoke openly about the differences in his skaters. Something along the lines of Yagudin being the great technician, but Plushenko being able to play any character.

    Panpie, Plushenko fans get annoyed because they have had to put up with him being portrayed as the Evil Communist Russian Villain for so long. Tarasova cleverly set Yagudin up as the outcast, the one who was treated unfairly, in the minds of the Americans, so they adopted him, and it became the old Cold War stuff all over again. You only have to watch the way the NBC treated Plushenko all those years. His fluff pieces were always dark and full of Soviet imagery, his interviews cut up and mangled to make him appear conceited. Only in Sochi did they actually melt and respect him so greatly, and then it was because suddenly the story of the ageing hero coming for one last try became stronger and greater than the Evil Communist Russian.

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    I am most certainly not a new figure skating fan, plushyfan. I have been watching figure skating since 1976! I am well aware of the Plushenko/Yagudin rivalry. Your suggestion that I must not know anything about skating or be unaware of how superior that Plushenko is (in your opinion) is bordering on being insulting. I am sorry, but you and some others on here are getting so defensive about Plushenko and going out of your way to put down Yagudin, is a turn off to me, and probably some others who are too nice to say anything. Unfortunately, I'm not in the too-nice-to-say-anything group.

    I don't appreciate having my taste and intelligence questioned simply because I don't find Plushenko particularly pleasing to watch. I think most people on here who prefer Yagudin have still given Plushenko his due. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing the same from you and some others who prefer Plushenko. As for Plushenko's range of characters, I don't see it. All I ever see with him is Plushenko. He has a great charisma, yes, but I don't find him to be particularly great at interpretation or taking on a range of characters in his skatingf. I can appreciate Russian culture and artistry, although I don't claim to be an expert about it, I can and do appreciate it. I don't find Plushenko to be some outstanding representative of Russian art and culture. Sorry. Furthermore, I'm not someone to be easily swayed one way or another by fluff pieces and such. God gave me a brain, and I do try to use it. I still prefer Yagudin over Plushenko. Sorry.

    We get it. You don't like Yagudin. You don't have to go on and on in paragraph after paragraph and post after post about how superior that Plushenko is; how Yagudin is a nasty person and an alcoholic; how Americans were duped by the media to like Yagudin; people who prefer Yagudin just can't see how wonderful Plushenko is; and so forth. If you notice, a lot of people have dropped out of this thread. Don't take that as an indication that your views have won anyone over. I think people are tired of being attacked and reading the same stuff over and over again.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamForeman View Post
    If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young.
    Yagudin's hip problems were not caused by poor technique. After the 2002 Olympic season, he was diagnosed with a congenital hip disorder--which means it is a problem he was born with. Yagudin would have had these problems regardless of what he did. Even with perfect technique, skating is still unforgiving on your hips and knees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panpie View Post
    >>If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young. <<

    Plushenko is injured, too, so I guess his technique was not perfect? People get injuries for all sorts of reasons. Skating is just hard on the hips and knees, period.
    One of the greatest Balanchine ballerinas ever, Suzanne Farrell, had both hips replaced near the end of her career. She continued to dance in a limited way (not on pointe) but of course couldn't sustain the kind of career she had achieved before. An article I read said that as time went on, discoveries were made about how dancers could train without putting such strain on their hips, so that degeneration of the joints wouldn't be inevitable. This proves that sound technique doesn't always protect a dancer (and by implication a skater) from injuries. Certainly it helps, which explains why Plushenko retained his jumps for so many years. Yagudin was a special case because he apparently had a structural malformation that predisposed him to hip problems. Another special case was Rudy Galindo, whose HIV resulted in necrosis of the hip joints. Sometimes life just happens.

    Brevity or longevity of a career isn't in itself an indication of how wonderful an athlete or artist is. One of the greatest tennis players in terms of achievement was Maureen Connolly, who won everything in sight over about a three-year period and then was injured in an accident while horseback riding and couldn't play anymore. It's not really possible to compare her actual quality (as opposed to enumerating her achievements) to that of someone like Martina Navratilova or Billie Jean King, both of whom enjoyed long careers.

  12. #87
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    to Panpie!

    Oh you became so angry!!! because you read bad things about your favorite..Well Plushenko's fans should always read a lot of unjust accusations and malicious presumptions about Plushenko and intentional misinterpretation of his words. I think you understand now, what we feel and think then. What I wrote that is true I can show you some links if you do not believe me.
    The thread was started by another poster not me. Of course , I wrote my opinion and I wrote many exact details about Plushenko and his skating because I know them. You didn't bring arguments, just personal opinion. Finally, you have rights to prefer Yagudin of course .. And I think many posters don't come here,because this is so boring for them..we were talking about it many times...

    Oh, I just remembered this is not for you.. I like Mishin quotes, and one of my favorites:

    “Many skaters are good, but Evgeni has charisma. He radiates a sense of beauty. He radiates something what spectacles need. The majority loves him, the minority jealous.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    The thread was started by another poster not me. Of course , I wrote my opinion and I wrote many exact details about Plushenko and his skating because I know them. You didn't bring arguments, just personal opinion. Finally, you have right to prefer Yagudin of course .. And I think many posters don't come here,because this is so boring for them..we were talking about it many times...
    I can see why you would get bored of such discussions, but I thought it was fair to open another thread where we might discuss how Plushenko has unquestionably surpassed Yagudin (or has he?) after his 4th Olympics. Because the discussion changes (and more people are won over by bionic Plushy's longevity) after every new Olympics that Plushenko competes in.

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    Plushyfan, I am well aware of who started the thread. I think the problem is, much of what you are writing is your personal opinion, not fact, despite what you seem to think. Quite a lot of what you and others have posted is insulting, especially the implication that people who prefer Yagudin just don't "get" Plushenko or were unduly influenced to like Yagudin by some campaign of Tarasova in the North American media. I don't care what Tarasova did to try to influence the media or skating fans. I am quite capable of forming my own judgments without regard to such influence, and I don't appreciate the implication otherwise. You really don't have to tear down Yagudin and his fans to build up Plushenko, yet your posts and those of some others have consistently been in that vein. It's almost as if you can't stand that Yagudin has any fans at all. I don't particularly care for Plushenko's skating, but I understand why he has his fans. I am not among them, however, and no matter what you say, I never will be.

    As for Mishin, well, of course, he loves Plushenko. Plushenko is his student. Mishin has his opinion, which you agree with, and I have mine. You are probably right about this much: people are probably bored with this topic and very likely tired of reading the same old defenses of Plushenko over and over again. I know I am.

    >>Brevity or longevity of a career isn't in itself an indication of how wonderful an athlete or artist is. One of the greatest tennis players in terms of achievement was Maureen Connolly, who won everything in sight over about a three-year period and then was injured in an accident while horseback riding and couldn't play anymore. It's not really possible to compare her actual quality (as opposed to enumerating her achievements) to that of someone like Martina Navratilova or Billie Jean King, both of whom enjoyed long careers.<<

    Very well said, Olympia.

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    Ever wonder what Y & P's personal relationship is like? Have they buried the hatchet? I don't speak Russian, but I watched a Russian TV show last year where Yagudin and Slutskaya are the skating hosts...Plushenko was on, Y skated up to him with his microphone and a big smile and they looked like they had a wonderful conversation. Of course, I don't know what was said. Seems like after competitive days are over, Russians are one big happy family. But maybe some Russians on this board can enlighten us.

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