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Thread: Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?

  1. #91
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panpie View Post
    Plushyfan, I am well aware of who started the thread. I think the problem is, much of what you are writing is your personal opinion, not fact, despite what you seem to think. Quite a lot of what you and others have posted is insulting, especially the implication that people who prefer Yagudin just don't "get" Plushenko or were unduly influenced to like Yagudin by some campaign of Tarasova in the North American media. I don't care what Tarasova did to try to influence the media or skating fans. I am quite capable of forming my own judgments without regard to such influence, and I don't appreciate the implication otherwise. You really don't have to tear down Yagudin and his fans to build up Plushenko, yet your posts and those of some others have consistently been in that vein. It's almost as if you can't stand that Yagudin has any fans at all. I don't particularly care for Plushenko's skating, but I understand why he has his fans. I am not among them, however, and no matter what you say, I never will be.

    As for Mishin, well, of course, he loves Plushenko. Plushenko is his student. Mishin has his opinion, which you agree with, and I have mine. You are probably right about this much: people are probably bored with this topic and very likely tired of reading the same old defenses of Plushenko over and over again. I know I am.
    You are wrong, Pampie. I really admire Yagudin as a skater. And I always admired and will admire him and most of the Plushenko fans think in a similar way, just we love more Plushenko . My experience Yagudin's fans always attack Plushenko and try to diminish him, everywhere, everytime. This is incomprehensible for me...( my post where I collected there results that isn't my opinion..facts.) but I think we need to finish this argue, because this isn't too nice...

  2. #92
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    Plushenko was the better athlete. Yagudins generally had better programs and was more reliable under pressure for a span of time. I got the idea that Plush was so consistent in practice that he sometimes didn't even know how to manage the situation when he made major errors.

    Both of their basics left a lot to be desired. Back pumping in crossovers, dubious posture especially Yagudin (commentators used to mention that in 98/99 and he never improved there) etc.

    I have a hard time calling what they did footwork sequences, but it worked for that era...

    I'm pretty sure Yagudins big muscled jumps were a factor in his injuries. Better technique does mitigate injury. It is a major factor in correctly dispersing the energy in those jump landings, which itself is a major factor in overuse injuries for figure skaters.

  3. #93
    The King has arrived - no questions! plushyta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Plushenko was the better athlete. Yagudins generally had better programs and was more reliable under pressure for a span of time. I got the idea that Plush was so consistent in practice that he sometimes didn't even know how to manage the situation when he made major errors.
    ....
    On the contrary! Plushenko has always been much more reliable and "cold-blooded" - many TV commentators mentioned his "nerves of steel". Because these "nerves of steel", Plushenko's mostly winning Yagudin - especially at the Russian National championship.... That's enough to say that Tarasova hired psychologists (parapsychologists ? ) in 2001/2002 season for Yagudin's problems with self-confidence and weak nerves.

    --------------------------------

    Here is additional arguments in the debate about Plushenko's artistry, from someone who certainly knows well what is "art" - translation from his official forum:
    http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/vi...tart=40#p56790

    http://www.sport-express.ru/newspaper/2006-02-22/7_1/
    ПЛЮЩЕНКО: КРАСИВ И НЕДОСТУПЕН

    Maya Plisetskaya, the ex-prima ballerina of Bolshoi, expresses her admiration of Plush after the Torino Olympics (from the interview by E.Shainskiy for sport-express, February 22, 2006).
    ------------------

    PLUSHENKO: HANDSOME AND UNREACHABLE

    E.S. - I cannot not ask you about Plushenko.
    M.P.- He is our favourite. He is so good that it looks like nobody can beat him. I can't imagine who can be better. He is a master, a great master who does everything beautifully, brilliantly and artistically. Also, he always looks so confident that we, his fans, cannot be not confident. He skates like an artist who knows that he is the best. Other skaters think that they are good too, but they have doubts and get nervous. Plushenko on the contrary always knows that he is much better than others, and he convinces all of us in it. He not just "works" on ice, he dances on ice masterly, and that is a wonderful thing to see.

    E.S.- What do you think about his appearance?
    M.P.- I think his appearance is fine. He is tall, striking, with a handsome body and long arms. He is not some cute guy from the postcard, thanks god he is not!, but he has the perfect face for the stage. The ice is the stage too.

    E.S.- Who does he remind you among ballet dancers?
    M.P.- He looks like Godunov, the Russian ballet dancer. The same type- tall, handsome, self-confident, with long waving in the wind and pirouettes blond hair. In ballet he would be perfect at parts performed by Godunov. He has the temperament and virtuosity for that."

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyta View Post
    On the contrary! Plushenko has always been much more reliable and "cold-blooded" - many TV commentators mentioned his "nerves of steel". Because these "nerves of steel", Plushenko's mostly winning Yagudin - especially at the Russian National championship.... That's enough to say that Tarasova hired psychologists (parapsychologists ? ) in 2001/2002 season for Yagudin's problems with self-confidence and weak nerves.

    --------------------------------

    Here is additional arguments in the debate about Plushenko's artistry, from someone who certainly knows well what is "art" - translation from his official forum:
    http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/vi...tart=40#p56790
    Yeah. He was totally reliable at the 2002 Olympics. And he has had major mistakes in other major competitions back then.

    I also said for a a span of time. I didn't say "period."

    Direct comparison ceased to be possible moving forwards when Yagudin retired.

  5. #95
    The King has arrived - no questions! plushyta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Yeah. He was totally reliable at the 2002 Olympics. And he has had major mistakes in other major competitions back then.

    I also said for a a span of time. I didn't say "period."
    ...
    Which "other major competitions"? Only LP at Worlds 2000 and SP at 2002 Olympics.

    You're talking in general, and I replied that "in general" - Pluhenko was much more reliable.... nothing else

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    What about competitions from 98 to 2000?

    Again. For a span of time. Yagudin was more reliable. Plushenko was poised to defeat him at an earlier world's (1999 - he was leading after the SP) and choked.

    Plushenko didn't really start consistently beating Yagudin until 2001 when the latter started battling injuries. And at major competitions like the ones you mentioned he was still able to overtake Plushenko.

  7. #97
    The King has arrived - no questions! plushyta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    What about competitions from 98 to 2000?

    Again. For a span of time. Yadkin was more reliable. Plushenko was poised to defeat him at an earlier world's and choked.

    Plushenko didn't really start consistently beating Yagudin until 2001 when the latter started battling injuries. And at major competitions like the ones you mentioned he was still able to overtake Plushenko.
    What with this period? Plushenko is the youngest male skater who won medals at the Worlds! Not bad for a 15 year old boy?

    Anyway, my points is:
    - Plushenko is over 2.5 years younger than Yagudin - he won international competitions, which Yagudin dont won in his age.
    - Plushenko also had injuries from 2001

    Here is numbers...
    http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00000124.htm

    World Championships 2001 - 1
    World Championships 2000 - 4
    World Championships 1999 - 2
    World Championships 1998 - 3

    European Championships 2001 - 1
    European Championships 2000 - 1
    European Championships 1999 - 2
    European Championships 1998 - 2

    ISU Grand Prix Final 2001 - 1
    ISU Grand Prix Final 2000 - 1
    ISU Grand Prix Final 1999 - 3

    Cup of Russia 2001 - 1
    Sparkassen Cup on Ice 2001 - 1
    NHK Trophy 2000 - 1
    Cup of Russia 2000 - 1
    Sparkassen Cup on Ice 2000 - 1
    NHK Trophy 1999 - 1
    Cup of Russia 1999 - 1
    Sparkassen Cup on Ice 1999 - 1
    NHK-Trophy 1998 - 1
    Cup of Russia 1998 - 2
    Skate Canada 1998 - 1
    Cup of Russia 1997 - 2
    Skate America 1997 - 2

    Goodwill Games 2001 - 1
    Finlandia Trophy 2000 - 1
    Goodwill Games 1998 - 3
    ...

    National Championships (Russia)
    National Championships 2001 - 1
    National Championships 2000 - 1
    National Championships 1999 - 1
    National Championships 1998 - 3
    ...

  8. #98
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    Age doesn't matter. It's when they Competed against each other.

    Age can also affect Yagudin adversely. He was on the scene earlier wearing his body down.

    It's not that big a deal. Yagudin was ranking will at 15 or 16 as well. So what?

    That's not the point, and I'm not interested in arguing about something this blazingly obvious.

    Yagudin won 3 World Championships in a Row and then Won the Olympics and another World Championship. He was also medaling on the World scene as early as the 97 Worlds where he won a Bronze. Aside from that Bronze and the Silver to Plushenko in 01, he won Gold at every other Worlds or Junior Worlds he competed against.

    And like I said before, Plushenko's packaging and programs were typically quite bad compared to Yagudin. Yagudin had issues technically and artistically. Neither of them were perfect. Later in his career Plushenko was a huge beneficiary of reputation scoring so I have a hard time really taking the later results seriously (Post-Turino) esp. WRT comparing them to what Yagudin did and against the skaters Yagudin had to skate against when he started medaling, before Plushenko burst on the scene as a seriously World Champion-level contender.

  9. #99
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Age doesn't matter. It's when they Competed against each other.

    Age can also affect Yagudin adversely. He was on the scene earlier wearing his body down.

    It's not that big a deal. Yagudin was ranking will at 15 or 16 as well. So what?

    That's not the point, and I'm not interested in arguing about something this blazingly obvious.

    Yagudin won 3 World Championships in a Row and then Won the Olympics and another World Championship. He was also medaling on the World scene as early as the 97 Worlds where he won a Bronze. Aside from that Bronze and the Silver to Plushenko in 01, he won Gold at every other Worlds or Junior Worlds he competed against.

    And like I said before, Plushenko's packaging and programs were typically quite bad compared to Yagudin. Yagudin had issues technically and artistically. Neither of them were perfect. Later in his career Plushenko was a huge beneficiary of reputation scoring so I have a hard time really taking the later results seriously (Post-Turino) esp. WRT comparing them to what Yagudin did and against the skaters Yagudin had to skate against when he started medaling, before Plushenko burst on the scene as a seriously World Champion-level contender.
    read my #75 post please...

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    read my #75 post please...
    Done with topic. I'm not into debate today. Hot tub time.

    Have fun!

  11. #101
    The King has arrived - no questions! plushyta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Age doesn't matter. It's when they Competed against each other.
    For me this is very "matter" - even 2.5 years younger, Plushenko overcame Yagudin... so his every victory is more valuable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Age can also affect Yagudin adversely. He was on the scene earlier wearing his body down.

    It's not that big a deal. Yagudin was ranking will at 15 or 16 as well. So what?
    He is 2.5 years older, but he was competed only 2 years earlier than Plushenko.
    I do not see that Yagudin in his 15, 16 years won any major international competition.... unlike Plushy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Yagudin won 3 World Championships in a Row and then Won the Olympics and another World Championship. He was also medaling on the World scene as early as the 97 Worlds where he won a Bronze. Aside from that Bronze and the Silver to Plushenko in 01, he won Gold at every other Worlds or Junior Worlds he competed against.
    - Plushenko won (as i said) his 1st Worlds medal, bronze in 15 - Yagudin same, in 17 years ... Plushy have only 1 gold medal less than Yagudin!
    - Plushenko won 2 golds and 2 silvers at Olympics - Yagudin 1 gold 2002 and 5th place 1998
    - Plushenko won 4 Grand Prix Finals and 18 GP - Yagudin 2 GPF and 12 GP
    - Plushenko won 7 Europeans golds (and 3 silver medals) - Yagudin 3 golds (and 2 silver)
    - Plushy won 10 Russian Nationals titles - Yagudin, none
    ...

    In international competitions - Yagudin was competed 9 years, Plushenko 10 + 3 incomplete seasons.

    Because the title of this topic: "Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?" - we are not talking here only about their "mutual score", but globally - who is the better skater.
    So, in my view - I put forward enough evidences, why Plushenko is better



    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    And like I said before, Plushenko's packaging and programs were typically quite bad compared to Yagudin. Yagudin had issues technically and artistically. Neither of them were perfect. Later in his career Plushenko was a huge beneficiary of reputation scoring so I have a hard time really taking the later results seriously (Post-Turino) esp. WRT comparing them to what Yagudin did and against the skaters Yagudin had to skate against when he started medaling, before Plushenko burst on the scene as a seriously World Champion-level contender.
    This is your opinion, which is based on your sympathy and taste - mine is different.

  12. #102
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    Stop quoting me. Earlier in the thread I clearly stated plush was the better athlete. You're going crazy trying to make him seem spotless. I'm done with you and with this topic.

  13. #103
    The King has arrived - no questions! plushyta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Stop quoting me. Earlier in the thread I clearly stated plush was the better athlete. You're going crazy trying to make him seem spotless. I'm done with you and with this topic.
    Why do I should to stop quoting you?

    ... and I ended with my arguments - the case is closed

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyta View Post
    Why do I should to stop quoting you?

    ... and I ended with my arguments - the case is closed
    Because it is sending me push notifications to my phone, and I asked you to stop it.

    I don't care about getting the last word. Enjoy that shallow victory. I only care that you understand that I'm done conversing about it, because it's a circular argument and you're too up tight and defensive to make it worth my time.

    Some common courtesy would be appreciated. Or I'll ignore you. I told you before I wasn't up to debating. Your tone is toxic.

  15. #105
    The King has arrived - no questions! plushyta's Avatar
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    Really? I dont turn on this feature

    Yes, arguments can sometimes be toxic

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