Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?

Yagudin had already retired by the time Facebook and Twitter came out. And when did the number of social media followers determine how good of an athlete someone is? Pele has 700K Twitter followers; Cristiano Ronaldo has over 25M. Does that make Ronaldo a better footballer? I don't think so.

plushyfan said:

Can you explane me why he received 75 6.0s if he wasn't artistry? Not to mention Plushenko is the favorite skater of Maya Plisetskaya and Nikolai Tsiskaridze. Both are among the greatest ballet dancers of the 20th century.

The Nijinsky program is very popular ..Many people think that is pure magic, perfection..

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I wasn't disputing his greatness (up until his retirement 1 minute before he was due to skate in the Sochi individual event), but if you must compare between Yagudin and Plush at their finest, I'd go with Yagudin.

Plush is a star in Russia, so those ballet dancers know his stuff but maybe not the other skaters as well as skating fans would. Do you think they'll pick John Curry or Plush if they knew who John Curry is?

He mostly received all those 6s because he often skated clean and had convincing presentation. In the history of skating, however, I would not rate him as a great artist.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

If Plushenko was better than Yagudin at all of those things you've said, why didn't he win their biggest head-to-head, the 2002 Olympics? http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG002.HTM Yagudin received 1st place ordinals from all 9 judges in both segments.

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Because Plushenko is not matured and good enough to beat yagudin in 2002 Olympics, just as yagudin is not good enough to beat plushenko in 2001. If yagudin is so good, why he lost to Ilia Kulik, Elvis Stojko and Philippe Candeloro in 1998? Does it mean he is worse than these guys? I believe you will tell me the same answer: he lost because he is not matured and good enough at that time.

Actually I did count up. the number of person claiming "Plushenko is better" is evenly matched with those claiming “yagudin is better". And the number of both sides is far less than you thought. As to the posters with "I prefer one of them" or "whose program is more interesting to me", "whose technique is better", the number is evenly matched too.

Who is the better one? or Who is the best ever? It's not a new topic. lots of jounalist and skater also have their opinion. We can find it in the articles and interviews. for example Joubert and Lambiel prefer yagudin. Hanyu and Weir like plushenko more. Dick Button and Kurt Browning don't buy plushenko's style. But Denise Biellmann think he is amazing and Hamilton give him huge credit as the greatest.

BlackPack said:

Plush is a star in Russia, so those ballet dancers know his stuff but maybe not the other skaters as well as skating fans would. Do you think they'll pick John Curry or Plush if they knew who John Curry is?

He mostly received all those 6s because he often skated clean and had convincing presentation. In the history of skating, however, I would not rate him as a great artist.

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Yuanyuan Tan, one of the Principal Dancer in San Francisco Ballet said she is plushenko's fan and the program nijinski made her crying. I can show the link if necessary. Yuanyuan Tan may be not great as Maya Plisetskaya. But at least she is a famous ballet dancer and she is not russian. It's still possible that Maya Plisetskaya or Nikolai Tsiskaridze will pick plush between him and John Curry, right? there is no evidence they don't know John Curry. Furthermore, no one in this thread is arguing "is plushenko a great artist as John Curry". The fact is they like plushenko's performance, and this is enough to prove that his artistry is admitted by these ballet dancers.

If plushenko received 6.0s because he skated clean and had convincing presentation. Yagudin is the same in Olympics and other games. And he skate with less clean programs and had less convincing presentation. But I am ok you prefer yagudin and doesn't rate plushenko as an artist. it's a very subjective, no one can change other's opinion.

I agree with anonymous penguin, number of social media followers doesn't determine how good an athlete is.

I love Plushy but I also prefer St Petersburg 300 to Nijinsky. Mostly because his poor body was so beaten up by the time they got to Nijinsky that they had to completely rip the guts out of that program. The original Nijinsky was absolutely stunning and would, I believe, hold up today.

I lose all patience with people who claim that one is significantly greater than the other. If the difference was so significant, why was it so close between them all those years?

They are both greats. Yagudin's hips robbed us of another four years of magic, but what we did get to see was utterly magnificent. Think about it - it's taken TWELVE YEARS to get figure skating back to the point where these two had driven it at the height of their rivalry. They were the Prost and Senna of their sport.

karne said:

They are both greats. Yagudin's hips robbed us of another four years of magic, but what we did get to see was utterly magnificent. Think about it - it's taken TWELVE YEARS to get figure skating back to the point where these two had driven it at the height of their rivalry. They were the Prost and Senna of their sport.

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I think they are Senna and Schumacher. After partly overlapped career, one is forced to leave the sports, another continue to fight and come back. Best Wish for Plushy and Yags!

nafsf said:

I think they are Senna and Schumacher. After partly overlapped career, one is forced to leave the sports, another continue to fight and come back. Best Wish for Plushy and Yags!

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Hmm, that may indeed be a more apt analogy. We will never know the full extent of that rivalry, as we will never know the full extent of Yagudin/Plushenko.

Meoima said:

Yagudin is the standard of a complete skater!!! No one can be more complete than him!! He is an artist and an athlete at the highest level of figure skating! Hence my avatar!

But on the other hand, Plushenko is the one who always to raise the bar higher!! He is the one who constantly push figure skating forward!! He is another kind of champion!! His longevity, his love for figure skating, no one can deny that! He is the pioneer!!:agree:

Both of them have big impacts on their own ways!

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This. :thumbsup:

anonymous penguin said:

Yagudin had already retired by the time Facebook and Twitter came out. And when did the number of social media followers determine how good of an athlete someone is? Pele has 700K Twitter followers; Cristiano Ronaldo has over 25M. Does that make Ronaldo a better footballer? I don't think so.

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yes. I don't say Plushy is more greater because of he has more followers on Twitter. (Plushy and Yag started Their Twitter account almost at same time).. I just wanted to show the people love him more than Yagudin..Why? Because they love more his skating. Plushenko is the best ticket seller and I know he is the most expensive skater on the shows..He can do it....The organizers pay for him the money..
Who is better footballer Pele or Ronaldo? Many people think Pele and he is legend already but many people would say Ronaldo he will be legend...But if you ask me who is the best I will say Ferenc Puskás.. or Zinedine Zidan..

BlackPack said:

I wasn't disputing his greatness (up until his retirement 1 minute before he was due to skate in the Sochi individual event), but if you must compare between Yagudin and Plush at their finest, I'd go with Yagudin.

Plush is a star in Russia, so those ballet dancers know his stuff but maybe not the other skaters as well as skating fans would. Do you think they'll pick John Curry or Plush if they knew who John Curry is?

He mostly received all those 6s because he often skated clean and had convincing presentation. In the history of skating, however, I would not rate him as a great artist.

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Probably they know who is John Curry but the question was wich skater their favorite? Yagudin or Plushenko?. Yagudin is also a star in Russia. (And Plushenko is the star in Europe, Asia, especially in Japan, he is the most popular foreign athlet ) And the ballet dancers perfectly know who is Yagudin and know his skating..And they prefer Plushenko.

You say you would note rate him as a great artist because you think he isn't on Curry's level..But Yagudin isn't on that level by far!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXjjwMvOguM

plushyfan said:

yes. I don't say Plushy is more greater because of he has more followers on Twitter. (Plushy and Yag started Their Twitter account almost at same time).. I just wanted show the people love him more than Yagudin..Why? Because they love more his skating. Plushenko is the best ticket seller and I know he is the most expensive skater on the shows..He can do it....The organizers pay for him the money..

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No, the point is that athletes who are still active will have a larger presence on social media than athletes who have already retired.

anonymous penguin said:

No, the point is that athletes who are still active will have a larger presence on social media than athletes who have already retired.

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No Plushenko is more popular skater in the world. If you would follow Plushy you know it...

to nafsf!

Where did you read that Stef prefer Yagudin? I never read that. I'm just curious and I would like to read that interview and download to my computer.. if you remember the link..

plushyfan said:

No Plushenko is more popular skater in the world. If you would follow Plushy you know it...

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Plushenko is more popular at the present moment because he was still actively competing. The Olympics also give athletes media attention they usually don't get, especially in a niche sport. I don't think it is surprising in the least bit that Plushenko is more popular right now, but that doesn't have much bearing historically nor does it have any impact on who is the better skater, which was the topic of this thread.

anonymous penguin said:

Plushenko is more popular at the present moment because he was still actively competing. The Olympics also give athletes media attention they usually don't get, especially in a niche sport. I don't think it is surprising in the least bit that Plushenko is more popular right now, but that doesn't have much bearing historically nor does it have any impact on who is the better skater, which was the topic of this thread.

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Let's just say if Salt Lake City 2002 were Sochi 2014, I do believe the number of people who would find Yagudin more appealing would be much much larger.
But of course, Plushenko have a star quality that not many one could rival.

anonymous penguin said:

Plushenko is more popular at the present moment because he was still actively competing. The Olympics also give athletes media attention they usually don't get, especially in a niche sport. I don't think it is surprising in the least bit that Plushenko is more popular right now, but that doesn't have much bearing historically nor does it have any impact on who is the better skater, which was the topic of this thread.

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Right. I never said that. But Plushenko was more popular in 2000 years and before Sochi by far. I tell a story it happens in Greece. Greece isn't famous about the figure skating . Plushy and his wife were in holiday. In the village where they rested many people recognized them. They were guests of the differente restorants every evening and they didn't pay for it. Another story Nikolai Baskov-he is a famous oprea singer and he is friend of Plushy- also was in Greece. He was in a restorant and when the owner knew that he is Russian asked about Plushy. He was happy because Baskov is his friend. The owner ask from him an autogram of Plushy and he gave a dinner for free.. Baskov promised him of, course.. And do you know about another skater who has training camp and many fans go there? You have so less informations about Plushy...

plushyfan said:

Right. I never said that. But Plushenko was more popular in 2000 years and before Sochi by far. I tell a story it happens in Greece. Greece isn't famous about the figure skating . Plushy and his wife were in holiday. In the village where they rested many people recognized them. They were guest of the differente restorants every evening and they didn't pay for it. Another story Nikolai Baskov-he is a famous oprea singer and he is friend of Plushy- also was in Greece. He was in a restorant and when the owner knew that he is Russian and asked about Plushy. He was happy because Baskov is his friend. The owner ask from him an autogram of Plushy and he gave an dinner for free.. Baskov promised him of, course.. And do you know about another skater who has training camp and many fans go there? You have so less informations about Plushy...

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No, I'm just not looking through rose-tinted glasses.

anonymous penguin said:

No, I'm just not looking through rose-tinted glasses.

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good answer...

plushyfan said:

No Plushenko is more popular skater in the world. If you would follow Plushy you know it...

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plushyfan, I love Plushy too. Very, very, much. But to use social media stats as an argument for his greatness is lunacy.

Do any of Plushy's videos have more than 4.4 million hits? And have any of them acquired those hits in the space of a week? There you go, using your logic, I just made an argument for Jason Brown being the greatest skater of all time.

You cannot, cannot, cannot use social media as an argument.

karne said:

plushyfan, I love Plushy too. Very, very, much. But to use social media stats as an argument for his greatness is lunacy.

Do any of Plushy's videos have more than 4.4 million hits? And have any of them acquired those hits in the space of a week? There you go, using your logic, I just made an argument for Jason Brown being the greatest skater of all time.

You cannot, cannot, cannot use social media as an argument.

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I knew a Plushy's Sex Bomb video with 3 million viewers. That was deleted. But the Sex Bomb videos - there are many videos on Youtube also has 4 millions now. BTW i understand you, I agree with you and disagree with you. I believe the followers show the account owner's popularity..

You are right, I would finish this debate but I read many new fals things again and again, what are show the posters are so uninformed about Plushy. And I'm full of informations and I can't stand that I don't write those . Sorry...: I move on......

plushyfan said:

to nafsf!

Where did you read that Stef prefer Yagudin? I never read that. I'm just curious and I would like to read that interview and download to my computer.. if you remember the link..

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I believe it's on his website, about personal interest. although I cann't find it now, I do find another link.
http://stephanelambielheartonice.blogspot.ca/2012/03/stephane-lambiel-interessi.html

plushyfan said:

I knew a Plushy's Sex Bomb video with 3 million viewers. That was deleted. But the Sex Bomb videos - there are many videos on Youtube also has 4 millions now. BTW i understand you, I agree with you and disagree with you. I believe the followers show the account owner's popularity..

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I didn't see any plushy's sex bomb over 3 millions. the one i saw is about 1.2 million.

On NICO, one Japan video website, I key in "figure skating" and the most hit one is sex bomb, about 1.1 million. second is yagudin's overcome mixed with star war, 1.0 million. third is plushenko's russian national cup nijinski, 711 thousands. 4th Hanyu 532 thousands. And on Youku, the Chinese video website, johnny weir's poker face has 3.7 million hits!

Hit number doesn't determine if an athlete is good either. But at least it can show how people (most of them may not be figure skating fan and do not know about technique) enjoy the program.