Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin? | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?

plushyfan

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I didn't see any plushy's sex bomb over 3 millions. the one i saw is about 1.2 million.

On NICO, one Japan video website, I key in "figure skating" and the most hit one is sex bomb, about 1.1 million. second is yagudin's overcome mixed with star war, 1.0 million. third is plushenko's russian national cup nijinski, 711 thousands. 4th Hanyu 532 thousands. And on Youku, the Chinese video website, johnny weir's poker face has 3.7 million hits!

Hit number doesn't determine if an athlete is good either. But at least it can show how people (most of them may not be figure skating fan and do not know about technique) enjoy the program.

Probably I was equivocal. I wrote there are many sex bomb videos those videos have 4 million viewes in total . I knew about Johnny's videos popularity. My chinese friend told me when she talked about the Artisry on ice shows..if I right remember well...
I remember Hanyu's Romeo and Juliett 2012 . That video had more than 1 million viewers...But that was also deleted ...
 

anyanka

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Let's just say if Salt Lake City 2002 were Sochi 2014, I do believe the number of people who would find Yagudin more appealing would be much much larger. :)
But of course, Plushenko have a star quality that not many one could rival.

Agreed. I preferred Yagudin back in the day, and I still prefer his 2002 FS to Plushy's 2006 FS, but that doesn't mean Plushy is any "lesser". In fact, he's a national treasure in Russia from what I understand: Tiger Woods, Beyonce / Jay-Z and Madonna all rolled into one, that's how famous / beloved he is (well maybe not so much with Tiger Woods nowadays but you get my point).

And Plushy absolutely has that X Factor that no one could buy or manufacture. You can't conjure that out of thin air. One has it or doesn't. Zhenya has had it for the last three Olympics, IMO. No one could outshine him, even when he withdrew from the men's SP, the talk was STILL all about him.
 

Bonnie F

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They are both greats. Yagudin's hips robbed us of another four years of magic, but what we did get to see was utterly magnificent. Think about it - it's taken TWELVE YEARS to get figure skating back to the point where these two had driven it at the height of their rivalry. They were the Prost and Senna of their sport.

I would argue that figure skating still is not at the height Yagudin and Plushenko achieved in the early 2000s, especially given the fall laden Sochi final. At least at their best you knew when the pressure was on that one and most times both would hit and lay down a stellar performance.
 

BlackPack

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Mar 20, 2013
I respect the Plush fans who have been very open-minded to discussing ideas contrary to theirs.

But my view remains the same - I feel his "passion" is histrionic and pretentious, not an actual, genuine emotional connection that I felt from other skaters.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
Well, er, now this isn't a dangerous thread at all, is it? :laugh:

What's indisputable: Better career goes to Plushenko. We can rail and cry about how Yagudin's injury cut off his potential, or that he "won" their rivalry, but the results speak for themselves.

Better skater? Well, we can debate that for the ages to come. Ultimately, "better skater" just translates to "my favourite skater"/"whose style I prefer."

Speaking for myself, I love both skaters but Plushenko has the edge. I think they were both great technicians and great artists. I get why some people may find Plush's style not to their taste, or others would believe Yagudin coasted on the strength of his programs and not due to his own interpretive skill or whatnot. But for me, they both brought expressiveness to the ice along with excellent technical content. Plushenko just had a slight edge in all aspects: better air position and lighter landings on jumps, both had great footwork but I find Nijinsky's just a tiny bit more memorable than Man in the Iron Mask (what I consider their two best performances). Neither were great spinners, but I give Plush credit for his iconic Biellmann, plus he improved his spins under COP and did his best to get the levels. Plush also pushed the technical envelope, while Yagudin was basically doing his best to keep up with what Plush was doing.

In terms of programs, Yagudin skated basically one type of program and did it really well. Nothing wrong with that. I personally didn't his tired of his "big movie soundtrack" skates. But Plushenko had an incredible diversity. Who else could pull off Michael Jackson, then turn around and do Adagio? They both sold the heck out of their programs, but Plushenko had a more... well, other posters have described it better than me, but the classical balletic lines versus Yagudin.

So no, if we're going by semantics, Plushenko isn't a "better skater because of his longevity." Just like I don't consider Yuna Kim a better skater than Michelle Kwan because she has an OGM. Just like I won't consider Yuzuru a better skater than Plush even if Yuzuru goes on to win another OGM. For me, Plushenko is the better skater because of his incredible connection with the audience, his diverse range of programs, his technical innovations--and frankly, because I connected with him and his skates far more than Yagudin's. All of that, in addition to his medals, his consistency, his longevity and determination to keep competing.

I have no problem with people preferring Yagudin. If you're writing a history book on FS history, then you need to give Plushenko his due. But I have no interest in "proving" Plush is the better skater to Yagudin fans (and in return, Yagudin fans aren't gonna have much luck "proving" he's such a better skater than Plush). They're both incredible athletes, and I'm grateful for what their rivalry has done for the sport.
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
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Plushenko's "longevity" was rather short-lived. He folded after the Olympic team event. So really this question is irrelevant.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Plushenko's "longevity" was rather short-lived. He folded after the Olympic team event. So really this question is irrelevant.

Er...

Four Olympics. Sixteen years as a Senior international.

If that doesn't fit the word "longevity" for you, I would have to question what does.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
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Yagudin won most of their head-to-heads at the big competitions and seems to be the more beloved one in English-speaking forums, but Plushenko continued and dominated while Yagudin got injured and retired. Do you consider Plushenko greater than Yagudin?

As is so often the case, the answer will vary depending on whom you ask (and in which country). Plushenko has always been more popular in Russia and always won Russian Nationals, whereas Yagudin beat Plushenko more often internationally. Yagudin became much more popular in America & Canada than Plushenko did, probably as a result of Alexei's deliberate effort in reaching out to North American audiences.
 

nafsf

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Apr 24, 2014
As is so often the case, the answer will vary depending on whom you ask (and in which country). Plushenko has always been more popular in Russia and always won Russian Nationals, whereas Yagudin beat Plushenko more often internationally. Yagudin became much more popular in America & Canada than Plushenko did, probably as a result of Alexei's deliberate effort in reaching out to North American audiences.



Although Yagudin didn’t win Russian Champion, he beat Plushenko three times in 96, 97, and 98. And Plushenko won over yagudin in 99, 00 and 01.

Yagudin did beat Plushenko more often internationally. If only regarding to the main internationally competition (GP, GPF, Euro, World, Olympics). Plushy lost to Yags in each competition they attended since 1997 to 1999. His winning started since 2000, when he won euro and yags won world. 2001 is Plushy’s season and 2002 is Yags’.
 

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For even 10 out of 30 posters to claim Plushenko is the better skater (not just the better competitor) is evidence their abilities as skaters are probably very close. Any other combination of two skaters, and the gap would probably be more, even ones who are reasonably in the same league. Anyway it is not like 30 posters on some random internet forum is some highly viable barometer to what the majority of people in the world believe.

I love how you pick a competition where Yagudin skated the best he ever has, and Plushenko was injured (and would miss worlds with the same injury) and skated at about 60% of his full potential. You even argue Goebel deserved to beat him at those Games, so that pretty much sums up how far off his potential Plushenko was there. Why not compare Yagudin and Plushenko at the 2001 worlds, as it was similarily lopsided, and would be equally as ridiculous.

The question you posed applies even more to you. I love how you keep acting like Yagudin was in a way higher league as a skater than Plushenko and anyone who dares say otherwise is crazy. If Yagudin was SO superior to Plushenko, how did he lose so many competitions to him from 2000-2002, in fact probably over half of the times they met those three years. It is not like Yagudin is some headcase who lost to Plushenko by various meltdowns, he is one of the strongest competitors in the history of figure skating as well. You wouldnt ever think Plushenko was by FAR Yagudin's most (and only) feared rival at his peak, and beat him in many competitions, and rarely lost by much even when he didnt by reading your posts. Then again anyone who reads you saying a clean Joubert would beat a clean Plushenko in his prime, or Lambiel with a triple axel would crush a clean Plushenko in the mid 2000s, and they would just assume you confused Plushenko with another skater, that nobody could really be that delusional. :laugh:

Goebel should have won the TM mark in the SLC FS. Yagudin clearly owned the second mark. Plushenko should have been below Goebel in TM but slightly higher in presentation. I still don't understand how Goebel lost to Plushenko in SLC outside or Reputation scoring, especially with the mistake he (Plushenko) made in the SP, which would have had any other skater lower than 4th place (judges gave Slutskaya similar help in 1998 to keep her in contention, FTR).

And there's no way for Plushenko to match Goebel Technically. Goebel's spins were better than Plushenko's (better positions, speed, and center, even) and what he did in the air hasn't been matched in Olympic competition since SLC - not by anyone, even Plushenko. None of those guys had amazing skating skills.

Plushenko and Yagudin only had one consistent Quad, so the most they could do was 2. The fact that Yagudin was able to water his technical content down and still score has high as he did in TM compared to Goebel (and even Plushenko) pretty much shows how bad of a scoring system 6.0 was. The scoring in SLC was pretty terrible across all disciplines.
 

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Because Plushenko is not matured and good enough to beat yagudin in 2002 Olympics, just as yagudin is not good enough to beat plushenko in 2001. If yagudin is so good, why he lost to Ilia Kulik, Elvis Stojko and Philippe Candeloro in 1998? Does it mean he is worse than these guys? I believe you will tell me the same answer: he lost because he is not matured and good enough at that time.

Yagudin was skating with the Flu in 1998. I think he beat a number of those guys at the World Championships prior to that, which pretty much invalidates your claims about being mature or good enough in 1998.
 

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I think you overrate Goebel in this case. Yes he did three quads, but his triple axels and triple lutzes are both ugly and small, and he also stepped out of one of the triple axels. Plushenko had 2 quads, but his triple axels absolutely destroy Goebel, and he did a triple axel into a triple flip and gorgeous 2nd triple axel, vs Tim's one clean little triple axel and the other attempt he stepped out of. Plushenko also attempted the super hard quad-triple-triple and made a great attempt at it, just two footing the 2nd jump. Yagudin's skate and all his jumps were clean as a whistle and the quality of his jumps (besides maybe the quads) and his footwork was far above Goebel's. As for spins, I would say all 3 were of a similar level, all good, not excellent. Plushenko compensates for his lesser quality in some spins by doing the Biellman which is super hard for a man. Yagudin has a huge death drop and adequate quality on all his spins. Goebel has a good sit spin, but his camel spin isnt good, and he doesnt do many unique or interesting positions.

He stepped out of one axel after catching an edge in, IIRC, a spread eagle entrance (a transition Plushenko would never attempt going into his jumps). I'll have to rewatch to confirm. Goebel does a number of his jumps out of transitions, while skaters like Yagudin and Plushenko telegraphed more.

I'm not sure you can call what Plushenko did a Biellmann. His spinning wasn't that good, at all.

In 6.0, contorting your body and possibly injuring yourself in the process was not a focus. Not even the women were really doing that, apart from a few (Slutskaya, Cohen for example).
 

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He did not beat a number of those guys. The 3 Olympic medalists all skipped worlds, and he never would have beaten Kulik or a healthy Stojko had they entered, especialy the way he skated there. The only guy he beat who beat him at the Olympics was Eldredge and that was only due to Todd's fall in the short program leaving him too far back, as Todd had all 1st place ordinals in the LP. At the grand prix final that same year he was also 4th behind Kulik, Stojko, and Eldredge. He didnt beat Kulik or Stojko at all that season.

Yagudin had no hope of the OGM in Nagano so previous poster is right he wasnt mature or good enough yet. A medal maybe if he skated his best, mostly due to all the mistakes and Stojko's injury.
Yagudin was injured at 1997 Worlds and Sick at 1998 Olympics. He was basically injured his entire career.

Someone with decent spins and all triples + a quad not good enough? Seriously? But Stojko is? I want to laugh.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
He stepped out of one axel after catching an edge in, IIRC, a spread eagle entrance (a transition Plushenko would never attempt going into his jumps). I'll have to rewatch to confirm. Goebel does a number of his jumps out of transitions, while skaters like Yagudin and Plushenko telegraphed more.

I'm not sure you can call what Plushenko did a Biellmann. His spinning wasn't that good, at all.

In 6.0, contorting your body and possibly injuring yourself in the process was not a focus. Not even the women were really doing that, apart from a few (Slutskaya, Cohen for example).
Yeah, and under 6.0 there wasn't a "transition" mark and spins didn't matter much anyway. If spins did, then Stojko called and would like his gold medal back. :biggrin:

Whether you like his Biellmann or not, for a long time, he was the only man who could do it. Definitely impressed the judges more than Goebel's at any rate.
 

Meoima

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Yeah, and under 6.0 there wasn't a "transition" mark and spins didn't matter much anyway. If spins did, then Stojko called and would like his gold medal back. :biggrin:
Whether you like his Biellmann or not, for a long time, he was the only man who could do it. Definitely impressed the judges more than Goebel's at any rate.
when did Plushy stop doing the Biellmann?
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
when did Plushy stop doing the Biellmann?
IRRC, his last Biellmann was Worlds 2005 SP (Moonlight Sonata), when he was 22. The one where he fell on the quad and later had to withdraw (and eventually got groin surgery). In retrospect, can't believe he did the Biellmann on a groin injury. You can find the video on Youtube (assuming it hasn't been deleted since I last saw it).
 

Meoima

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IRRC, his last Biellmann was Worlds 2005 SP (Moonlight Sonata), when he was 22. The one where he fell on the quad and later had to withdraw (and eventually got groin surgery). In retrospect, can't believe he did the Biellmann on a groin injury. You can find the video on Youtube (assuming it hasn't been deleted since I last saw it).
He should have got rid of it when he was 19. I hope Hanyu won't do Biellmann next season. No matter how flexible they are, I only feel uncomfortable when men do Biellmann. :unsure: Let the ladies do it, boys!
 

Sandpiper

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He should have got rid of it when he was 19. I hope Hanyu won't do Biellmann next season. No matter how flexible they are, I only feel uncomfortable when men do Biellmann. :unsure: Let the ladies do it, boys!

I have to disagree! :) Plush's Biellmann is iconic. It's the reason I (and others who don't always follow FS very actively) remembered him for all these years. I watched Salt Lake, but I was really young at the time. Didn't really remember anyone but Plush because of his Biellmann (I've since rewatched it, and I love Yagudin's performances as well, of course). I was more into the women back then anyway. Couldn't bear to watch anything Torino live because I was so heartbroken over Michelle Kwan's WD (and basically stopped watching FS altogether for a long time). When I watched Vancouver with my mother, and Plush came on, my mother's like, "That's the kid from Salt Lake!" Me: "What?" Mother: "The one who did the Biellmann." Me: "Oh, he was wonderful! ...Wait, he's still competing?!"

(this is way off topic, sorry)
 

silverfoxes

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Feb 16, 2014
I love it when men do Biellmann spins. :love: I really dislike the idea that any skater should limit themselves, or skate a certain way, because of their gender...whatever style they feel comfortable with is what they should use. Period.
 
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