Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin? | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
I have to disagree! :) Plush's Biellmann is iconic.
I know, but it's bad for their bodies so I hope they will stop as soon as possible. Everytime they do Biellmann, I feel kinda worried and uncomfortable. Women are more flexible, but even some don't do Biellmann because of their back problem. Example: Yuna.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
Okay, yeah, you do have a point. I wonder how far Plush could've gone if he'd stopped the Biellmann at 20. But I really don't want to imagine a world where Plush never did the Biellmann at all.

Also, let's face it--figure skating is bad for the body. Quads are bad for the body. Triples are bad for the body. High-risk sport at competition level is bad for the body. There's no way injuries can be avoided entirely unless we go back to figures.
 

nafsf

Spectator
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Apr 24, 2014
Yagudin was skating with the Flu in 1998. I think he beat a number of those guys at the World Championships prior to that, which pretty much invalidates your claims about being mature or good enough in 1998.

Yagudin skated a cleam program without flu in his sp and was placed 4th in Nagano, the same place as Plushenko in 2002 SLC. He had no chance to win if Kulik made a clean LP. And the latter did. It's easy to admit that he is not as good as the other guys in 1998, but it doesn't mean he is less than them overall. Yagudin didn't win any champion in 1996 and 1997 season when he was only 16 and still very young. Plushenko didn't win any champion in 1997 and 1998 seasons when he is 15. It's not a shame and doesn't mean they are less than the others. they just need time to grow up and mature their technique and performance.

by the way, I think we may forget about injury and sick. Almost all the athletes have injures and may experience sick, sometime, somewhere. It's a pity, but it's their own problem, not the other's fault. they should handle it and provide good performance. If they couldn't, they just lost. These guys are great because they fight and win with or without injure. Plushenko skated with injuries in 2014, if Russian lost the team gold because he bombed in SP and LP, I don't think the fact "he skated with serious injury" would add much on his greatness (at least I won't think so).
 

Components

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Apr 2, 2014
I love it when men do Biellmann spins. :love: I really dislike the idea that any skater should limit themselves, or skate a certain way, because of their gender...whatever style they feel comfortable with is what they should use. Period.

If you can do a Biellmann like Michael Christian Martinez have at it. If your Biellmann is terrible then don't. In Gymnastics we call that chucking. Meaning you're putting your body at risk doing stuff you have no business doing for points. It was an unnecessary risk and I wouldn't be surprised if he's had back issues because of it.

There's nothing iconic about a terrible Biellmann. It looks painful and doesn't breed excitement.

They could barely get their foot over their head in the position, if at all.

I hope Hanyu stops it, cause he looks like he's gonna die after a program without it already. It's not worth it and there are easier ways to get a Level 4 spin with less potential long term issues associated with it.

And by long term I mean when they're 50 and not skating for medals do they want arthritis in their backs or not.

There are many skaters who retired with few health issues and they were at the forefront of difficulty during their eras. Most of the skaters who have issues post retirement do so because of over training or bad mechanics on elements, not simply because they were doing quads. Boitano and Browning, Petrenko, and others seem fine. Urmanov too.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
So because you, one person, didn't like his Biellmann, it's not iconic? Or, for that matter, it's not a Biellmann at all? I think Alexei Yagudin's triple axel looks heavy and laboured on the landings, so that means Alexei shouldn't do triple axels, and in fact, he never did any triple axels at all? Oh, and Mao should stop trying triple axels, since they're often underrotated and she can't do them as well as Midori Ito.

Plush was the first man ever to do the Biellmann in senior competition, and for a long time, the only one. He wasn't competing against some fictional Michael Christian Martinez who also had Yagudin's jump content. The Biellmann is what me, and many people, remember him for. You don't have to like his Biellmann (see: Meoima's post), but that doesn't mean he didn't do it. He did what no man in the world could do at the time.
 

karne

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Jan 1, 2013
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Australia
Have to say, as sacrilegious as this sounds...I prefer Jason's half-Biellmann to a full Biellmann on anybody, man or woman. It doesn't matter which gender does it it always looks forced and painful to my eye.

But yes: just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it never happened, and no other male skater in the world at the time was doing one.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
@karne
Jason's really flexible! :agree: I'm not partial to the half-Biellmann myself, but I enjoy how he integrates his flexibility into his programs, especially that free skate. And it doesn't look forced at all.
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
Well, actually when Plushy was under 20 his Biellmann looked really great. It just in his after years I felt uncomfortable on behalf of his back. If Plushy hadn't suffered from that back problem, who knows how much better he could have archived?

Same thing with Yuzuru. When he did it at WC 2012 I think his Biellmann looked okay, but this year I think he should stop it. I hope next season they won't include that element in his long program. I hope the kid will stay healthy and compete in the field for at least 6 years in the future. So, if it's better for his health, then I hope he will stop it.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
But Plush stopped his Biellmann at 22. That was nine years ago. (He did do half-Biellmanns--spins and spirals--at Japan Open and some Artistry on Ice shows in 2010, but I don't think those few instances are big factors). I don't know if the Biellmann is responsible for his current problems. I suspect the quads are much, much worse.

Imo, his final Biellmann at 2005 Worlds was actually one of his better ones in later years. Probably he sensed he was going to lose it soon (to injury more than age, but still), so he decided to do it one more time for old time's sake, in front of his home crowd. I think Plush had a connection with the Biellmann the way Mao has a connection with the triple axel. Even though it was a difficult move for their respective genders, they both want to do it (and keep doing it as long as possible) because it had become their trademark.
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
But Plush stopped his Biellmann at 22. That was nine years ago. (He did do half-Biellmanns--spins and spirals--at Japan Open and some Artistry on Ice shows in 2010, but I don't think those few instances are big factors). I don't know if the Biellmann is responsible for his current problems. I suspect the quads are much, much worse.
Then Yuzuru will likely not stop doing Biellmann in the next 1 or 2 year, I'm afraid so. Plushy is his hero and the main reason for Yuzuru's Biellmann is because of Plushy. Like "my idol does Biellmann so I also do Biellmann". :unsure: Heck, Yuzuru even kept his mushroom hairstyle for years (only changed his hair when he turned senior) because that was Plushy hair. :unsure: The kid surely takes fandom to another level. :rolleye:

Back to topic, I don't think either of them is the better skater, given that Yagudin retired so early and Plushy has stayed on the field for so long.

But if you compare their Olympic gold medal programs, I would like to say I would chose Yagudin's.;)

Personally I think Yagudin's short career does harm him when people compare him to Plushy. But let's face it, people are still coming back to his 2 programs at Salt Lake City, and they still say: "Oh I miss these days!"
It couldn't be helped, given the tedious men event in Sochi. But let's admit it, that year was still the best of men competition we have ever seen by far. We have both Yagudin and Plushy in one Olympic, both are incredible skater, powerful jumper, and let's not forget Timothy Goebel. So personally I think the quality that of year was the best.

Plushy is known by more people, thanks to his longevity, but I think his performance in Torino were not his best. He was better than everyone there, so of course he won. I remember, right only in half of his program, the commentator said: "The rest can forget about gold." :biggrin: There was no one who could be an equal to Plushy that year. If Yagudin had stayed in the field and competed in Torino, I think he had little chance of winning Plushy. But because of that, it lacked true rivalry.

Intense rivalry is the reason I value the men event at Salt Lake City more.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
You're probably right about Yuzuru keeping the Biellmann. I think he has a slight edge in terms of better modern rehabilitation and whatnot (as Plush stated in an interview, that was severely lack in Russia during his youth). Also, hate to stereotype and whatnot, but considering Yuzu's tiny bone frame, he'll probably have an easily time maintaining flexibility than Plush (I get the sense that, at least to some degree, Yuzu is naturally flexible. Plush is very flexible for a relatively large man--by figure skating standards--but he attained that Biellmann by working his butt off).

I'm neutral on whether Yuzu keeps the Biellmann or not. I'm glad he did it--I like to see people try different things--but it doesn't have to keep doing it if it becomes difficult. Plush maintained his Biellmann because he was the first to do it, and the only one, so it likely felt like an obligation to keep including it (just my speculation, of course).

I agree that Yagudin's set of winning performances were better than Plushenko's. And that SLC >>> Torino as a competition. But I'm not sure if that proves who's better and whatnot (well, nothing's going to prove who's "better," but you get what I mean). I will say, I did really enjoy Godfather as well. It wasn't Plush's best, but no one else could've skated with the conviction required to pull off that program. I'm glad it's in his repertoire.
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
If it's true that Plushy is 1m78, then he is not small at all. Not a 6'' but I think that is enough to be considered tall. For him to keep Biellmann for years, it's kinda awesome.

I don't know who would the judges choose if they skate to their full potential (both at the peak) in one competition. What a pity Yagudin is 2.5 years older, so their peak would never be in-tune at all. Just saying I enjoy both of them. Such a golden era. I don't see anyone has the same charisma as these 2.

Well, Yuzuru and Jason Brown has that "it factor" but more like puppies than powerful men like Yagudin and Plushy. It's part of their charm so I don't expect these kids to change into sexy men, though. :laugh: (Well, especially Yuzuru, I think he probably still looks 20 when he turns 30, because of that boyish gen).

I hope Yuzuru will be more consistent. Mainly because Plushy favors him that much, so I hope Yuzuru will stay on his feet, most of the time, like Plushy has been.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
I don't think Plush and Yags ever went head-to-head with them both skating lights out and clean, even. Usually one or the other would have mistakes, and that would decide the competition. I really think a perfect Carmen (coupled with a perfect short program that didn't make a bad impression in the judges' minds) could've challenged Yagudin's long program. Heck, even with the mistakes, the American commentators were convinced Plush had won the free after Yagudin skated with only one triple axel. But Scott Hamilton is so inconsistent with his commentary that I have no idea what he really thinks anymore.

Yagudin put together the two best performances of his life, short and long, at the Olympics. I feel like that is why he goes down as one of the greats (vs. other champs like Urmanov, ect.). It was such a phenomenal night that people often forget Yagudin's had his share of bad performances and won two of his World titles by default because everyone else messed up along with him. Not saying any of that detracts from his greatness, but that's just the narrative I gleaned from his career. Plush, on the other hand, put out a series of great performances over many years, but didn't put his two best together, and certainly not at something as high-profile as the Olympics.

EDIT: And yes, Plush is a pretty large man by figure skating standards. Another reason he stood out to me and I remembered him (well, and the hair :laugh:) I was under the impression, especially at the time, that figure skating is more suited for shorter, stockier people like Yagudin or Stojko who have better balance to land the jumps, even if they don't cut as graceful a figure.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I love it when men do Biellmann spins. :love: I really dislike the idea that any skater should limit themselves, or skate a certain way, because of their gender...whatever style they feel comfortable with is what they should use. Period.

I like it as well, but when it's execute properly. Plushenko's Biellman was astonishing when he was younger, but as he got older and his body aged, it turned into a strained awkward spin and not something that I found particularly aesthetically pleasing. It got to a point where his left hand wasn't even close to the boot and was holding his right elbow practically and the arch in his back wasn't there. Hanyu's and MCM's Biellmanns on the other hand are absolutely lovely to watch, and with their smaller frames probably easier to execute.

I used to do Biellmanns too, and they are NOT easy for guys to do without straining, and I give Plushenko props for doing it about as well as you could expect a man (man, not boy) to do it.

I'd love to see Brown do a full Biellmann... I think he's got the flexibility and strong spinning ability to pull it off (or up as it were). His back Camel one-foot Biellman is lovely though (and the layback!). :love:
 
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