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Thread: Russian Nationals podium

  1. #106
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    When did I call him the "epitome of inconsistency"? Just saying he's not consistent--like most of the field. I'll have to recheck the results, but at this point in his career, Artur was actually more consistent (at least more successful) than Kovtun. Of course, Artur went and imploded since then, just to show how we can't use one season (let alone one performance) as a benchmark.

    Agree with the second paragraph, but frankly the men have always been inconsistent. The result of greater jumping ability + wonkier balance, perhaps? The main difference right now is before, at least the top 1 to 3 guys were consistent, while now even the top two (Chan and Hanyu) aren't. I'd put Hanyu's chances of developing consistency far higher than Kovtun's though (and his mistakes cost less due to how COP works).

  2. #107
    Hate fake smiles and horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Conversely, it seems one bad performance at Euros makes people think Kovtun is the epitome of inconsistency. People forget that he just started competing the 4S this season, and he's certainly had more success with it (even with the singles) than other skaters have had in their first season with a new quad (and more consistency than Hanyu and others have had this season with their 4S).
    I wouldn't call Kovtun a consistent skater, but neither is most of the men's field -- including the current World Champion (who has fallen or popped in every event he competed in this season, and only executed his 4S twice). This is simply a reflection of how technically ambitious the men are being these days.
    Some skater are better at some certain jumps and worse on other jumps, I think it's normal. For example Javi is not comfortable with his 4T but very good at 4S. The Salchow and Flip are the jumps that Hanyu is not so comfortable with. But his 3A and 4T are much much better, especially the 3A. I think he will be more comfortable from now on with the Salchow and flip, now that his confidence is boosted. Anyways, this is not the place to talk about other skater than just the Russian.

    Personally I think Gachinski has better basic skills than Kovtun at 17. And let's face it, Tarasova's teams are not famous for excellent technique. While both Yagudin and Gachinski came from the Mishin cam, lol.

    As for Kovtun, I think it's too early to say anything about him. But at this moment I have to admit I tried but couldn't like his skating. His postures are much worse than even Hanyu.

    Anyways, somehow people forget that Yagudin and Plushy weren't much consistent in their early years either. Their debuts at worlds (where both medaled bronze respectively) were full of errors.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Some skater are better at some certain jumps and worse on other jumps, I think it's normal. For example Javi is not comfortable with his 4T but very good at 4S. The Salchow and Flip are the jumps that Hanyu is not so comfortable with. But his 3A and 4T are much much better, especially the 3A. I think he will be more comfortable from now on with the Salchow and flip, now that his confidence is boosted. Anyways, this is not the place to talk about other skater than just the Russian.

    Personally I think Gachinski has better basic skills than Kovtun at 17. And let's face it, Tarasova's teams are not famous for excellent technique. While both Yagudin and Gachinski came from the Mishin cam, lol.

    As for Kovtun, I think it's too early to say anything about him. But at this moment I have to admit I tried but couldn't like his skating. His postures are much worse than even Hanyu.

    Anyways, somehow people forget that Yagudin and Plushy weren't much consistent in their early years either. Their debuts at worlds (where both medaled bronze respectively) were full of errors.
    To be honest, while I appreciate Gachinski's basics, he always seemed as a Plushenko v2.0, and it's pretty sad how Mishin destroyed any chance at Gachinski developing his own uniqueness and style. His PCS is now relegated to the level of Menshov/Voronov after his breakout season, due to inconsistency. And his choreography IMO is average, and something Kovtun has a huge advantage over (I mean, look at their SPs).

    Kovtun's posture on his jumps are terrible, but in his overall skating I think he has less of a "power skating into jumps" style, and actually has better musicality than most, if not all, of the Russian men. And that's just in his second season. I mean if a skater in his first major season adds a quad to his FS as a junior, and in his second major season (and first GP season) wins two medals and comes 4th at Worlds after adding a different quad to his repertoire, that's pretty remarkable to me.

  4. #109
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    why do we keep bringning Gachinski everytime ?
    we are talking a skater here who barely cracks a 200 score

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    When did I call him the "epitome of inconsistency"? Just saying he's not consistent--like most of the field. I'll have to recheck the results, but at this point in his career, Artur was actually more consistent (at least more successful) than Kovtun. Of course, Artur went and imploded since then, just to show how we can't use one season (let alone one performance) as a benchmark.
    I'm not saying you did, but others make it seem like Kovtun has been a bust which is hilarious given his results this season (two GP silvers, 4th at Worlds and the Russian title), in just his second season (and, really, his first full senior season).

    Artur had a great performance in winning World bronze in his first season, but he has been FAR from the podium in his GP events (I mean, the closest was 5th at 2011 Cup of China). And he did the reverse of Kovtun, had an amazing Worlds debut where he was 3rd and then 18th the next year. He's also yet to win the Russian title. It's pretty apparent that Gachinski is on a downwards trend, and Kovtun is on an upwards trend with momentum, so unless Gachinski has some ridiculous turnaround there's absolutely no way he will defeat Kovtun at Nationals next year. He's essentially in the same boat as Tuktamysheva at this point.

  6. #111
    Hate fake smiles and horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    To be honest, while I appreciate Gachinski's basics, he always seemed as a Plushenko v2.0, and it's pretty sad how Mishin destroyed any chance at Gachinski developing his own uniqueness and style. His PCS is now relegated to the level of Menshov/Voronov after his breakout season, due to inconsistency. And his choreography IMO is average, and something Kovtun has a huge advantage over (I mean, look at their SPs).

    Kovtun's posture on his jumps are terrible, but in his overall skating I think he has less of a "power skating into jumps" style, and actually has better musicality than most, if not all, of the Russian men. And that's just in his second season. I mean if a skater in his first major season adds a quad to his FS as a junior, and in his second major season (and first GP season) wins two medals and comes 4th at Worlds after adding a different quad to his repertoire, that's pretty remarkable to me.
    But Gachinski has changed coach already, he's still young and he should move on. He has good jumping techniques so I hope his new coach will do something for him to regain his self-confidence.

    For Kovtun, if he continues to pop jumps, it will only harm him. If I remember correctly, popping a jump creates more damage to your body than a fall. Not to mention the new rules.

    Anyways, what about the new scoring rules, will they apply them on national competition? If so I think both of these men will be affected since they frequently fall and pop jumps.

  7. #112
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    I agree Artur is a more naturally talented and stylish skater than Kovtun (and a more talented jumper too IMO) but he is a huge headcase. I see Kovtun likely being ahead pretty much always in the years to come unless Artur gets a new coach or someone that can work out his issues which are pretty deeply rooted at this point.

    I like Voronov's skating more than Kovtun's, and he has been screwed by the Russian fed. for many years, but sadly he is probably now seen as a spent force who still hasnt even competed at the Olympics into his late 20s. Dont see him as much of a threat to Kovtun in the coming years either, although he can beat Kovtun when he has an off day which isnt too infrequent.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    But Gachinski has changed coach already, he's still young and he should move on. He has good jumping techniques so I hope his new coach will do something for him to regain his confidence again.
    not if the new coach will destroy his jumps and will permanently handicap him as injured until he retires
    Sokolovskaya is the nail in the coffin in a skater's career

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    But Gachinski has changed coach already, he's still young and he should move on. He has good jumping techniques so I hope his new coach will do something for him to regain his confidence again.

    For Kovtun, if he continue to pop jumps, it will only harm him. If I remember correctly, popping a jump creates more damage to your body than a fall.

    Anyways, what about the new scoring rules, will they apply them on national competition? If so I think both of these men will be affected since they frequently fall and pop jumps.
    I don't get how popping a jump would do more damage to your body than a fall... like, intuitively speaking, a fall has an impact on your body, a popped jump is a single. An impact on your score, yes.

    I also expect Kovtun to pop jumps a lot less next season, with the confidence gained from Worlds. And like Hanyu or Javier (who have doubled and popped jumps themselves), popping a jump is still affordable if you have high difficulty in general. I mean, the reality is, Kovtun still landed a quad and two triple axels in his Worlds FS, and a quad and 3A in his Worlds SP (with a URed second quad). Not bad for his second season, and first time at Worlds where he wasn't fasttracked up from juniors mere months before and faced immense pressure.

  10. #115
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    I said several posts back, paraphrased, "I hope Kovtun improves and becomes more watchable, because he's more likely to stick around than poor Artur." So you're correct, Kovtun's got the momentum at the moment and he's more likely to succeed. I don't think his success is anywhere near guaranteed (same goes for Artur's failure).

    I never found Artur to be Plush 2.0, especially not "Plush at 19-20" 2.0 (regardless of what you think, Plush did not skate one performance his entire career). And even if Artur is Plush 2.0, that's preferable to me over... whatever Kovtun is at this moment. I'm not gonna put a label to it but I don't enjoy it at all.

    Artur's struggling right now because his jumps are failing him. You can rag about Mishin if he's hitting all his jumps and his PCS is still down the drain (and he's skating two quads and losing to one-quad Kovtun). Right now, we don't know how the judges will reward him if he skates clean because he hasn't been doing that for a while. If I were Artur right now, I'd worry more about getting the elements back first.

    Bottom line: I'm rooting for Artur because I enjoy his skating more. You're rooting for Kovtun because you enjoy his skating more (I presume). Hopefully they'll both improve and not spiral into oblivion?

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't get how popping a jump would do more damage to your body than a fall... like, intuitively speaking, a fall has an impact on your body, a popped jump is a single. An impact on your score, yes.

    I also expect Kovtun to pop jumps a lot less next season, with the confidence gained from Worlds. And like Hanyu or Javier (who have doubled and popped jumps themselves), popping a jump is still affordable if you have high difficulty in general. I mean, the reality is, Kovtun still landed a quad and two triple axels in his Worlds FS, and a quad and 3A in his Worlds SP (with a URed second quad). Not bad for his second season, and first time at Worlds where he wasn't fasttracked up from juniors mere months before and faced immense pressure.
    Javi seems to be laid back, even his coach said he is not as competitive as his other students. I am just amused by this fact, because if he were more competitive, he could have archived more. What a pity. But he still has time.

    For Kovtun it's very difficult to predict. Because I haven't seen him develop a style yet. So I can't tell which direction he is heading to. His former coach was Morozombie, isn't he?

    The thing with Kovtun is, so many people find his skating ugly (well, I don't think he's that ugly) but it's just the overall impression. I remember a threat on FS universe and people there were quite hostile towards his skating.
    My first impression of Kovtun (Russian national) was: "Okay, he looks decent. His jumps look okay..." Then after 2 minutes I turn to: "Why it's so boring?"

    Actually I find Gachinski's funny hands waving (when he was desperately trying to be emotional) kinda cuter than Kovtun.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Javi seems to be laid back, even his coach said he is not as competitive as his other students. I am just amused by this fact, because if he were more competitive, he could have archived more. What a pity. But he still has time.

    For Kovtun it's very difficult to predict. Because I haven't seen him develop a style yet. So I can't tell which direction he is heading to. His former coach was Morozombie, isn't he?

    The thing with Kovtun is, so many people find his skating ugly (well, I don't think he's that ugly) but it's just the overall impression. I remember a threat on FS universe and people there were quite hostile towards his skating.
    My first impression of Kovtun (Russian national) was: "Okay, he looks decent. His jumps look okay..." Then after 2 minutes I turn to: "Why it's so boring?"

    Actually I find Gachinski's funny hands waving (when he was desperately trying to be emotional) kinda cuter than Kovtun.
    My first impression of Kovtun when I saw him on the JGP was that it was refreshing to see a Russian skater who paid attention to more than just the jumps.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    My first impression of Kovtun when I saw him on the JGP was that it was refreshing to see a Russian skater who paid attention to more than just the jumps.
    or more like someone is crushing on Kovtun's looks

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  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    My first impression of Kovtun when I saw him on the JGP was that it was refreshing to see a Russian skater who paid attention to more than just the jumps.
    Never got this sense from him at all. Biggest difference for me between Kovtun and other "Russian skaters" is that his jumps look ugly as heck.

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