The USA Ladies

chuckm · Apr 6, 2004

Kahle turns 15 this month and will be eligible for senior events this coming season. She seems to be having a tussle with the puberty monster right now, so it remains to be seen if she can overcome her problems and be a top competitor for 2006.

Kimmie Meissner and Katie Taylor are both October babies and won't be eligible for Senior competitions until the 2005-2006 season. If one or the other, or both, compete at US Senior Nationals this coming season and finish in the top 10, there is an outside possibility that one of them could finish in the top 3 at US Nationals in 2006 and make the Olympic team.

soogar · Apr 6, 2004

I thought they bypassed the age issue if they medaled at worlds like Sarah had. Kimmie medaled at worlds so she should be able to skate senior events next year.

berthes ghost · Apr 6, 2004

They got rid of that rule.

euterpe · Apr 6, 2004

soogar said:
I thought they bypassed the age issue if they medaled at worlds like Sarah had. Kimmie medaled at worlds so she should be able to skate senior events next year.

No, the rules that allowed Sarah to compete at a young age have long since been grandfathered.

The rule now is quite firm: in order to compete at a senior ISU championship in 2005, a skater must be 15 years old on or before July 1st, 2004. Danielle Kahle will be 15 in two weeks, hence she will be eligible to compete at 2005 Worlds.

But Kimmie and Katy were born in October 1989, and they will still be 14 on July 1st, 2004. They won't be eligible for ISU senior events until the 2005-2006 season.

nymkfan51 · Apr 6, 2004

Thanks for the verification on the age requirements everyone. That IMO takes away any realistic chances for Kimmie and Katy ... it would be rather hard for them to have their first major senior ISU comp (other than GP), be the Olympics. Not impossible, just very difficult.
And I have not been that impressed with Danielle thus far ... we shall see.

soogar · Apr 6, 2004

Well Sasha's first international experience was the Olympics and with the way her scores were, had she not made any mistakes in the LP, the judges would have marked her above Sarah who had 2 bronze world medals. With the code of points, these girls may have a fighting chance in the next Olympics. Plus a lot of folks are counting on MK to make the Olympic team, I'd like to remind everyone that this is a sport and MK might not be a shoe in to make the Olympic team or even worse, she could get injured doing those 3-3s.

gezando · Apr 6, 2004

Jenny is a flake...... MK ...... could get injured doing those 3-3s.

Skate gods hear that?

I am sure the skate gods have a plan already.

Sasha's first international experience was the Olympics

Actually SC's first senior international experience was COR, and USFSA sent Sarah who is one year younger but more seasoned in international competition to COR with Sasha. Sarah beat Sasha in that event. I believe leading to and including the Olympics, Sarah beat Sasha in every senior international competition.

BTW, Sarah won world bronze once, not twice.

had Sasha not made any mistakes in the LP, the judges would have marked her above Sarah

What if Sasha did not make mistakes, what if Michelle did not fall, what if Plushenko did not fall, what if Irina landed 3z/3l, what if Tara is healthy, what if Deana Stellato is healthy, what if Jamie Silverstein is healthy.....

All in the hands of the skate gods

soogar · Apr 6, 2004

Sasha's first big international event was the Olympics and the commentators made note of it. She had never competed in Worlds before. I guess if we want to get picky we could count Junior Worlds as an international event. However with lack of experience at a World senior level, I believe one judge marked her above Sarah in the LP at SLC and her presentation scores were very good overall despite the mistakes.

gezando · Apr 7, 2004

Soogar, in your original message you said, "Sasha's first international experience was the Olympics" you did not say Sasha's first HUGE international event

Now that you mention it, junior world is an international world level event, and that is not being picky.

]

aguyin2003 · Apr 7, 2004

I can see Yebin being one those late boomers in skating. I think the U.S. still has the deepest field in ladies IMO ( its not all about the jumps). Kimmie, Katy and Bebe are the ones to watch out for IMO. Bebe just has to get pass her growth spurt and the other just need to marture more and hope injuries dont hit them. BTW I think we'll being seeing 3/3's by both Cohen and MK next season and MK'S jumps did looked higher at worlds soo...Just because we didn;t win junior or senior worlds doesn;t mean we're in a slump, after we still put two ladies in the podium at both worlds.

berthes ghost · Apr 7, 2004

Well, let's be really picky. Not only was Sasha at Junior Worlds, an international event, but she did the senior GPS in the 2000-2001 season and didn't do well, not making the GPF. She actually went to nationals, and withdrew just prior to the SP. She then did the 2001-2002 GPS, and again skated poorly.

I know that events like NHK don't carry the same weight as worlds, but people often mistakenly assume that Sasha missed an entire season with injury. She didn't.

OK, I looked it up.
2000-2001
Cup of Russia 4th
Sparkassen 5th
2001-2002
Skate America 5th
Lalique 3rd
Junior Grand prix 1999-2000
She won Salchow Trophy but didn't make JGPF.

euterpe · Apr 7, 2004

Sasha also skated at the 2001 Goodwill Games and finished 4th.

soogar · Apr 7, 2004

Now that we've established that Sasha had skated Grand Prix events with less than stellar results, why would international judges score her so high at the Olympics unless her skating was spectacular? I noticed that with Sarah, they really saved the marks (were barely going to give her the bronze medal) and Sasha skates after her with lots of errors yet the judges gave her the presentation scores.

What I'm trying to point out is that if the skating is spectacular, the judges will give the title to someone who is a practical unknown or just skated juniors so the Junior skaters now won't be at a disadvantage when it comes to the Olympics.

Also whatever version of the code of points the ISU decides to adopt will take away a lot of the favoritism that returning champions and high ranked skaters get when they perform in the Olympics. It will even the playing field.

chuckm · Apr 7, 2004

"Evening the playing field" is giving Sasha 9.0s in Skating Components for a FS where she completed only 4 triples and fell twice? That's not holding up a 'favorite'?

There will be JUST as much favoritism and holding up under CoP, because those honest ISU judges can use the SC marks to place skaters just where they want them. They did it at Lalique, and they did it at the GPF.

I will just be curious to see who DOES get held up under CoP this coming fall---Shizuka or Sasha. Now that Tarasova is in Shizuka's corner, we may see the worm turn in a different direction from last year.

Mathman · Apr 7, 2004

Jumpingbeans, ITA. It's a shame that only the top few coaches seem to have the clout really to advance the fortunes of their students past a certain level. But I suppose it's that way in every endeavor.

Welcome to the forum. You sound like an insider in the junior skating world. I hope you will post more about Jane B., and other skaters that don't get much ink. I would like to know more about them.

Mathman

soogar · Apr 7, 2004

chuckm: skating components aren't the same as jumps and Sasha's skating components are incredible from her forward scratch spin (which Uncle Dick says is the hardest in the world) to her spirals and other spins. Sasha doesn't even need to jump to be interesting and have a lot of content in her programs.

mzheng · Apr 7, 2004

soogar said:
chuckm: skating components aren't the same as jumps and Sasha's skating components are incredible from her forward scratch spin (which Uncle Dick says is the hardest in the world) to her spirals and other spins. Sasha doesn't even need to jump to be interesting and have a lot of content in her programs.

Then how could you explain Sasha score was higher in basic skill than Arakawa? IIRC in CoP a fall warrente a 0.4 deduction in one of the component mark. With two fall that's 0.8 deduction. How you explain the range of 9.0 mark? It was pure obvious holdup. I'm too interested to see this coming fall, whom they going to holdup with TT as Arakawa's coach.

BTW, I always liked Arakawa's skating, felt she was underscored since last season. Moreso at the beginning of this season. Honestly I don't see her dramatically improved on her presentation after she switched to TT like many ppl claimed. Her presentation has always been good in my book, artistry just a matter of different taste, expression hasn't change a lot still a typical Japanese Lady look, speed and ice coverage has always been there. IMO, switch to TT is what helped her improving presentation mark, it is like she collected her due and pluss some interest on the due.

thvudragon · Apr 7, 2004

soogar said:
chuckm: skating components aren't the same as jumps and Sasha's skating components are incredible from her forward scratch spin (which Uncle Dick says is the hardest in the world) to her spirals and other spins. Sasha doesn't even need to jump to be interesting and have a lot of content in her programs.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. It seems like you have never even read the criteria and guidelines for the CoP. Sasha should not even be earning 7s in transitions. Her choreography marks are a joke in comparison as well.

Also, Sasha had two falls in her LP at the GPF. According to the rules, for every -3 mistake, the judges are to take off .5 from Performance/Execution. One judge gave Cohen a 9 in P/E which in iteself is absurd. That would mean without the falls, it would have been a 10. In order to recieve a 10, the program must not have any errors, major or minor. Flutzing constitutes an error.

So please, before you comment on the judging process and a skater's marks, actually read the rules.

soogar · Apr 7, 2004

First of all, Sasha's spins and spirals are level 3 difficulty. Also TT had her going into her jumps with difficult entries. How can you definitively say how the COP has been implemented when they've been playing with it all season long? I don't proclaim to know every detail of COP, but I'm not blind and when Sasha skates, you can see the change of edges on her spins, the position changes, entries in her jumps and the quality of her spirals. Of all the top skaters (including Shizuka), pre Robin, Sasha had the most variety in her skating. Even Sasha's watered down program still showed great spins and beautiful spirals, though I think they took out some of the change of edge spins she had been doing all season (I have only seen the new Swan Lake once). Sasha isn't great in footwork, however not too many ladies are great in footwork and her other elements offset that weakness (though I would put her on par with the other ladies in the footwork area, it's just that she's far above them in all other areas except jumps).

Tonichelle · Apr 7, 2004

soogar said:
Now that we've established that Sasha had skated Grand Prix events with less than stellar results, why would international judges score her so high at the Olympics unless her skating was spectacular? I noticed that with Sarah, they really saved the marks (were barely going to give her the bronze medal) and Sasha skates after her with lots of errors yet the judges gave her the presentation scores.

What I'm trying to point out is that if the skating is spectacular, the judges will give the title to someone who is a practical unknown or just skated juniors so the Junior skaters now won't be at a disadvantage when it comes to the Olympics.

Also whatever version of the code of points the ISU decides to adopt will take away a lot of the favoritism that returning champions and high ranked skaters get when they perform in the Olympics. It will even the playing field.

yes but that olympics, after the pairs LP, was being heavily watched by everyone... I think the judges had to play it correctly... normally I don't think Sarah, Sasha, and MK would have all been placed so close together... I'm sorry I just don't have the faith in the judges a lot of other people do... after this worlds I'm wondering why we have judges or skating at all... lets just give the gold to the highest bidding country :rolleye:

The USA Ladies

chuckm

soogar

berthes ghost

euterpe

nymkfan51

soogar

gezando

soogar

gezando

aguyin2003

berthes ghost

euterpe

soogar

chuckm

Mathman

soogar

mzheng

thvudragon

soogar

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

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