The USA Ladies

hockeyfan228 · Apr 7, 2004

mzheng said:
BTW, I always liked Arakawa's skating, felt she was underscored since last season. Moreso at the beginning of this season. Honestly I don't see her dramatically improved on her presentation after she switched to TT like many ppl claimed. Her presentation has always been good in my book, artistry just a matter of different taste, expression hasn't change a lot still a typical Japanese Lady look, speed and ice coverage has always been there. IMO, switch to TT is what helped her improving presentation mark, it is like she collected her due and pluss some interest on the due.

I agree. I think that Arakawa's basic skating skills have been wonderful for a long time, although she's refined them over the years. and that she was woefully undermarked for them during this GP season, particularly on skating skills.

I think that in general, the Program Components scoring was abysmal all year. There were maybe a handful of judges all year who seemed as if they actually were scoring according to the written standards. That's why I think looking for out of line scoring is dangerous; I think every judge should be required to justify his/her scores against the written code, not against the other judges' scores.

Jumpingbeans · Apr 7, 2004

Welcome to the forum. You sound like an insider in the junior skating world. I hope you will post more about Jane B., and other skaters that don't get much ink. I would like to know more about them.

I wouldn't call myself an "insider" but I do know how these skaters train and a little politics to go with that. As for more info about the barely known skaters, I couldn't give that to you without a direct question. And I could only answer as much as my conscience would let me without feeling like a creep talking about people I hardly know.

shine · Apr 8, 2004

hockeyfan228 said:
I agree. I think that Arakawa's basic skating skills have been wonderful for a long time, although she's refined them over the years. and that she was woefully undermarked for them during this GP season, particularly on skating skills.

I think that in general, the Program Components scoring was abysmal all year. There were maybe a handful of judges all year who seemed as if they actually were scoring according to the written standards. That's why I think looking for out of line scoring is dangerous; I think every judge should be required to justify his/her scores against the written code, not against the other judges' scores.

ITA ITA ITA

euterpe · Apr 8, 2004

Soogar: "First of all, Sasha's spins and spirals are level 3 difficulty "

I think what was being discussed was the GPF Ladies free skate. If you go to the Protocol details for that competition, you will find that Sasha's spins, spirals and footwork were level TWO, not level THREE. The only one who had a level THREE element was Arakawa.

Mathman · Apr 8, 2004

IMO, switch to TT is what helped her improving presentation mark, it is like she collected her due and plus some interest on the due. -- MZheng

Whether one agrees or not, that was a clever turn of phrase, MZ!

Mathman

chuckm · Apr 8, 2004

I wonder if the trend to award Olympic medals to young teenagers is about to come to an end. We have had 3 Ladies OGM winners in a row who were 16 or under: Oksana, Tara and Sarah. Oksana and Tara immediately turned pro. Sarah skated desultorily for one more season then quit eligible competition to attend college.

The age for competing at senior ISU championships (and the Olympics) was raised, and the GP and JGP series were created for a reason: to keep young skaters in the eligible ranks. And since Tara in 1997, all of the World Champion ladies have been 17 or over: 1998-Kwan, 17; 1999-Butyrskaya, 26; 2000-Kwan, 19; 2001-Kwan, 20; 2002-Slutskaya, 22; 2003-Kwan, 22; 2004-Arakawa, 22.

soogar · Apr 8, 2004

With the increasing age for ladies gold medalists, perhaps Sasha Cohen 2006- 21 or 22.

Sarah doesn't quite fit in with that gruop of medalists though, she wasn't really tiny or anything and I think that had her heart been into continuing, she would still be skating at the same level today because at last year's nationals, she still had consistent triple jumps without the vigorous training.

chuckm · Apr 8, 2004

Sarah may not have been tiny, but she was only 16 when she won her OGM.

When Sarah returned for the 2002-2003 season, her jumps were heavily cheated, and she couldn't do her 3/3s any more. At 2003 Worlds, she was noticeably out of shape and was far from consistent. She had a disastrous QR, finishing 6th, then finished 8th in the SP and 6th in the FS.

soogar · Apr 8, 2004

I only saw Sarah at 2003 nationals and whileher skating didn't look pretty , her jumps looked very good and they didn't seem cheated. She didn't have the 3-3 combo, but then again, after putting on 10-20 pounds, she was handling the weight gain really well and it didn't seem to affect her at nationals. Worlds was an aberration for Sarah, unfortunately she left on that note, but you can't judge her on one competition. I think if she had wished to , she certainly could have pulled herself together. It definitely wasn't her body that betrayed her such as Oksana and Tara which is why I don't want to lump her with the other baby ballerinas. I actually don't know what to make of the age restrictions. I see guarding against injury, however what about a kid skating seniors the way SArah did and then going on with her life and attending college? Why don't they focus on limiting the amount of events and touring that a young skater does rather than take them out of senior competition? It's really unfair b/c if a girl is born on the wrong month or year, she'll have to wait another 4 years to compete in the Olympics and at that time, she might wish to concentrate on other things.

euterpe · Apr 8, 2004

Soogar: "Worlds was an aberration for Sarah, unfortunately she left on that note, but you can't judge her on one competition. "

There was one more competition after Worlds: the spring cheesefest. Sarah finished 8th of 8.

Sylvia · Apr 8, 2004

Mathman said:
It's a shame that only the top few coaches seem to have the clout really to advance the fortunes of their students past a certain level. But I suppose it's that way in every endeavor.

But Robin Wagner wasn't exactly a "big name" in the coaching ranks when she coached Sarah Hughes to the 1998 junior title.

You sound like an insider in the junior skating world. I hope you will post more about Jane B., and other skaters that don't get much ink. I would like to know more about them.

Click to expand...

Mathman, I noticed you list your location as Detroit. Have you ever attended the Skate Detroit club competition in late July at the Detroit Skating Club in Bloomfield Hills? It's one of the major U.S. summer competitions, and quite a few national-level skaters have debuted their new competitive programs there in the past -- Matt Savoie, Ryan Jahnke, Jenny Kirk, and lesser known seniors like Lindsey Weber, Alexandra Patterson, Alissa and Amber Czisny, Adriana DeSanctis, etc. -- and there are always lots of up-and-coming novices and juniors to watch as well. I highly recommend it!

Edited to add: 2004 Skate Detroit dates are July 21-24 (Wed.-Sat.).

soogar · Apr 8, 2004

euterpe:
I don't even consider a cheesefest a competition. It's a glorified exhibition which some skaters take seriously, while others just show up and accept the check. At that point, Sarah wanted to hang out with her friends, do her classes and just enjoy her senior year. She didn't train seriously for any events and she openly admitted that. Even without training seriously, she still skated better than Sasha at Nationals and Sasha had been competing the whole season. I'm not saying she's better than Sasha, but she maintained her jumps and looked "good" (I really don't like her skating, but it was good for her) at nationals.

euterpe · Apr 8, 2004

At 2003 Nationals, Sasha took too seriously all the hype about her being "unbeatable". She had been winning up a storm on the Grand Prix, and right before Nationals, she was touted as the next US champion. Her SP was none too good, but her FS was a disaster. She was very much held up to receive the bronze medal.

Sarah's SP wasn't quite clean, either, but her FS was definitely better than Sasha's.

Mathman · Apr 8, 2004

Sylvia, thanks for the heads up about the Skate Detroit competiton. No, I have never gone to that, and in fact I just heard about it last year. I just put it on my calendar!

GS poster NorthernLite also told me that there are events going on at the Onyx from time to time, and that visitors can drop by and watch practice sessions, too. I think there is a lot going on in the Detroit area! I did get to meet Tanith Belbin and Ben Agosto last year (also Jerrod Swallow, coming out of Bed, Bath and Beyond -- they have a home decorating business, LOL.)

Mathman

mzheng · Apr 8, 2004

hockeyfan228 said:
That's why I think looking for out of line scoring is dangerous; I think every judge should be required to justify his/her scores against the written code, not against the other judges' scores.

I'm not sure what the first half sentance you mean. But totally agree the second half that judge should be required to justify his/her scores against the written code. And the anonymouse judge needs go, if you can justify your score against the written code, why you need to hide behind your score?

mzheng · Apr 8, 2004

soogar said:
I only saw Sarah at 2003 nationals and whileher skating didn't look pretty , her jumps looked very good and they didn't seem cheated.

You must be kidding. Even at 2003 Nats she cheated almost all of her sigle triples. That's why leading into 2003 worlds after the national when so many ppl hype on Sarah over internet like an OGM would improve her skating, I was never counting her over Sasha. In my eye her skating always looked flawed, not sure if it was poor posture or bad jump technique, OGM or not does not improve your skating skill over night, but may be improve your status in judge's eye.

Ogre Mage · Apr 8, 2004

I agree with mzheng. At the Olympics I thought Sarah's jumps were NOT cheated. When I saw her again at 2003 Nats and Worlds, I was shocked at how she had degenerated. The flutz was terrible and her jumps were so badly cheated you almost didn't even need to slo-mo to see it.

I always thought Sarah was one of those "coulda' been" as far as her artistry went. It wasn't like Nelidina or Yoshie Onda for whom artistically I never had any hope. I thought Sarah skated with musicality and someday might have become an artistic skater. But a lack of line, posture and bad choreography held her back. In time, I believe she could have overcome these limitations but it just wasn't meant to be.

thvudragon · Apr 8, 2004

soogar said:
First of all, Sasha's spins and spirals are level 3 difficulty. Also TT had her going into her jumps with difficult entries. How can you definitively say how the COP has been implemented when they've been playing with it all season long? I don't proclaim to know every detail of COP, but I'm not blind and when Sasha skates, you can see the change of edges on her spins, the position changes, entries in her jumps and the quality of her spirals. Of all the top skaters (including Shizuka), pre Robin, Sasha had the most variety in her skating. Even Sasha's watered down program still showed great spins and beautiful spirals, though I think they took out some of the change of edge spins she had been doing all season (I have only seen the new Swan Lake once). Sasha isn't great in footwork, however not too many ladies are great in footwork and her other elements offset that weakness (though I would put her on par with the other ladies in the footwork area, it's just that she's far above them in all other areas except jumps).

You've completely missed the point and have basically continued to show you don't know what the criteria for all the component marks are. You keep mentioning her superior elements. What does that have to do with transition and choreography? On Skating Skills, if you've actually read what criteria garners a 9, you would see that Sasha deserves in the 6-7 range. The only parts of the Component marks that Sasha should do well in are Choreography and Interpretation, which are of course very subjective. 9s could be argued for choreo and int, but I see it as more of the 7-8 range according to the criteria.

That still leaves her absurd marks from the GPF where some judges have obviously no idea what the criteria is and have forgotten there are guidelines. 9 in performance/execution, please.

TV

thvudragon · Apr 8, 2004

Ogre Mage said:
I agree with mzheng. At the Olympics I thought Sarah's jumps were NOT cheated.

I'm always confused when I see this because if you actually look at the frame of when she lands, she cheated at least 4 of her jumps severely.

http://www.pcpages.com/fsvids01/3flip.jpg
http://www.pcpages.com/fsvids01/3lutz.jpg
http://www.pcpages.com/fsvids01/3sal.jpg
http://www.pcpages.com/fsvids01/3loop1.jpg

The flip was cheated by 1/2. The salchow was cheated by 1/3 and the loop on that combo was cheated by 1/3. The lutz was cheated by 1/4 as well. Sarah's LP from the Olys was not cheat free, it's obvious in thos pictures. Sarah is lucky her cheats generally went ignored.

TV

PrincessLeppard · Apr 8, 2004

I just have to point out here, since no one else did, that even if dear ol' Dickie claims the forward scratch spin is the most difficult spin in the world....he's wrong. It's one of the first spins you learn. Is it difficult to do well? Yeah. Is it the most difficult spin ever? Um, no. I think it's a level one under CoP.

To stay on topic: I hope YeBin Mok gets healthy. I love, love, love her skating. If she skates well, and Michelle and Sasha skate well, honest judges should have a hard time ranking them.

Laura

The USA Ladies

hockeyfan228

Jumpingbeans

shine

euterpe

Mathman

chuckm

soogar

chuckm

soogar

euterpe

Sylvia

soogar

euterpe

Mathman

mzheng

mzheng

Ogre Mage

thvudragon

thvudragon

PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~

Similar threads

Connect with us