Who had more presence in the FS? Cohen vs Kostner

Sandpiper said:

Cohen vs. Kostner... Who will be remembered for years to come? Well, Cohen in North America and Kostner in Europe. Maybe let Kostner's legacy sit for a while. Cohen has silver to Kostner's bronze, but Cohen didn't manage to win Worlds even once. I'll give Kostner a slight edge because of her long career and how she had the most success at the end of it. Really an inspiration for women to not retire the moment they stop being teenagers.

I'm not quite as floored by Kostner's presentation as some others, but what Pangtongfan said is true to a large degree: Kostner does have great skating skills, incredible footwork, and huge jumps (when they're landed). However, I don't think clean Kostner is really a threat to a clean Yuna. Yuna, even with a more conservative skate, beat Kostner. And clean Cohen could've won against clean Kwan at Nationals, imo. Not sure about internationally. The reason she never won is 'cause she was never clean.

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Yuna's so-called conservative skates included harder jumps in the SP and higher BV in the LP. Kostner's BV was lower across both programs, and her LP was watered down with some tight jumps (2A-3T instead of a 3-3, 3S-2T-2T instead of 3S-2T-2Lo). Had Kostner skated her planned Worlds content cleanly (though I feel ridiculous even mentioning such a possibility) she could've beaten Kim in Sochi. Internationally, clean Cohen could easily beat clean Kwan at any competition under CoP. Under 6.0, probably never.

aftertherain said:

I thought Sasha had a 3T+1Lo+3S and a 3Lz+3T at one point?

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I don't remember much of the former, and I remember the latter existed for maybe 2 actual competitions (with a flutz each time of course), with all the other attempts being woefully short. Compare to Kostner's 3F-3T and (early on) 3Lz-3T which although on and off were always spectacular when landed.

LyraAngelica said:

I think it is reaching a little bit to say that Sasha Cohen is remembered only in the U.S.

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I never hear her referenced in Eurosport or anywhere else the way Michelle Kwan and even Tara Lipinski still are. Even if she isnt forgotten, Kostner is a bigger star anywhere but the U.S and maybe Canada than Sasha is. Not that either is a monstrous one anywhere (other than maybe Kostner in Italy, Cohen even in the U.S was a brief and no longer B-list celebrity at best).

CarneAsada said:

Yuna's so-called conservative skates included harder jumps in the SP and higher BV in the LP. Kostner's BV was lower across both programs, and her LP was watered down with some tight jumps (2A-3T instead of a 3-3, 3S-2T-2T instead of 3S-2T-2Lo). Had Kostner skated her planned Worlds content cleanly (though I feel ridiculous even mentioning such a possibility) she could've beaten Kim in Sochi. Internationally, clean Cohen could easily beat clean Kwan at any competition under CoP. Under 6.0, probably never.

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I'm only talking about the LP. SP definitely goes to Yuna. I really thought she was underscored there, and that's what ultimately lost her the competition, but that's neither here or there.

Didn't Kostner skate with seven triples vs. Yuna's six? I'm not sure about the jump layout and spins and stuff, so I'll trust you on the BV part. For sure, number of triples isn't the only dictation of how hard a program is. And of course, "conservative for Yuna" doesn't mean conservative in general.

And yes, I meant under 6.0. Kwan competed under COP only once, out of shape and injured and seemingly confused about the scoring system, so I don't think it's reasonable to compare her with Cohen under COP in some imaginary skate.

For that matter, I think it's a bit unfair to compare what Kostner is doing today vs. what Sasha was doing back in the early 2000s. The sport has changed (advanced? but we can argue that). Just like it's unfair, imo, to say Yuna is a greater skater than Kwan and other great ladies of the past, just because she has a 3Lz-3T and they don't (you can argue Yuna is the greater skater, but using the 3Lz-3T is the wrong way to go about it). I admire Kostner for her longevity and how she adapted and advanced with the sport, but I don't think her triple combinations prove her superiority to Cohen. Anyway, we're talking iconic quality, not better technical skating.

As for the Cohen vs Kwan matchup, most years I think it was actually much more likely for Sasha to possibly beat a clean Michelle internationally than it was nationally. Even if you could argue she could do the latter, or wouldnt do the former, either way the latter was almost always more likely than the former. The only year I can think of that Sasha seemingly had an easier path (if it can ever be phrased as that) of possibly beating a clean Kwan at Nationals than worlds/Olympics was 2003, and that is only because Sasha blew her reputation she had built up that year by coming to Nationals as favorite and skating awful and coming 3rd behind a semi-retired walrus Hughes. Maybe she could have beaten a clean Kwan at Nationals in 2002, 2004, and 2005, but she had a better shot all those years of doing it at worlds than Nationals. Not that either venue would be easy (well other than 2005 worlds under COP).

Well COP is a different story. Yes under COP Cohen would be favored over Kwan, even a clean Michelle, as Kwan late in her career and physically limited by injuries could not have realistically adapted her skating to COP in a relatively short time as Sasha who began getting experience under it in late 2003, and along with Slutskaya (ironic as she is such a different skater than Sasha) is the best suited to the system as well.

Either way I cant imagine Cohen having any chance to beat a clean Kim. Yeah a clean Kostner would PROBABLY still lose to a clean Kim, but she would still have an outside shot atleast. Do remember the 2008 worlds where Kostner actually made many more mistakes than Kim and Asada both and still beat Kim, and nearly Asada. Cohen would have none to beat a clean Kim, or probably even an almost clean Kim, no matter how well she skated. The only reason she had some shot vs a clean Kwan is Cohen was at the stage she was improving, while Kwan even if arguably still in her prime until 2004 had already peaked in 2001 and stopped improving. It is unlikely if Cohen was born say 5 years earlier and was coming up with 96-98 Kwan she ever would have been a threat to her, atleast under 6.0. Cohen only beat Slutskaya twice ever, and both times Irina had a meltdown and had only 3 clean triples. I think Kostner would be more competition for Irina than that as well. Cohen was trounced both times she met baby 15 year old Asada, while Kostner went almost 4 years without losing to her at one stage. Basically whatever great skater you use as reference I see Kostner doing better than Kim, so that suggest to me atleast from a competitive standpoint she is the better skater.

Some could say Kostner was lucky to win her world title, but Sasha would have won the 2006 and maybe even 2004 worlds just doing what Kostner did in 2012 and maybe even 2011 and 2010 in the LP so......Atleast Kostner took her one great shot, and Sasha blew her 2 or 3 ones. OK Kostner blew another great shot in 2008, but atleast she took 1 of them. Meanwhile Kostner's amazing Sochi performances which some thought deserved gold as it was, would have EASILY won both the 2002 and 2006 Olympics. And I mean super easily. Under any scoring system.

aftertherain said:

I thought Sasha had a 3T+1Lo+3S and a 3Lz+3T at one point?

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Yes Sasha had a pretty good 3T+1L+3S triple-triple combo (if that even counts as one). She landed it cleanly which helped her win her 2006 silver despite a fall and step out, since none of Shizuka, Irina, or Fumie even tried a triple-triple or 7 triples like Sasha (in fact none even tried more than 5).

The 3 lutz-3 toe was more a fantasy jump for Sasha. She was supposably doing it in 2001-2003 but of the 10 time she had it planned only attempted it about 5, and only landed it once. After landing it for the only time ever in the LP at the 2003 Worlds she fell on two much easier elements, and it was never attempted again.

I do agree that, while both were inconsistent, Kostner at least improved in later years. So in that sense, she'll be remembered for her improvement, while Sasha will forever be lamented for having all the opportunity and talent in the world but blowing it every time.

That being said... if Kostner and Cohen competed in the same era, peaked at the same time, and both skated their absolute best, I'm not certain Kostner would win every time. Cohen doesn't have Kostner's skating skills or jump combinations, but who's to say she could not have developed them (or developed something of her own) if they competed together? Basically, I don't consider them to be of the same era, so I'm not sure if comparing their elements is the best way to go about this. Maybe we can look at their influence on other skaters (and how they compare to skaters of their own generation, which Pangtongfan did quite well), but that'll have to wait a while because Kostner only recently retired.

And yes, Kostner's Olympic skates would've won in 2002 and 2006, but again, different eras. And in both cases, the favourites skated nowhere near their potential, or even their regular every day skate (my heart breaks for Michelle and Irina...). Say what you want about Sochi, but at least all three ladies on the podium put out commendable skates, and it didn't turn into "who can survive the falls!"

Sandpiper said:

I do agree that, while both were inconsistent, Kostner at least improved in later years. So in that sense, she'll be remembered for her improvement, while Sasha will forever be lamented for having all the opportunity and talent in the world but blowing it every time.

That being said... if Kostner and Cohen competed in the same era, peaked at the same time, and both skated their absolute best, I'm not certain Kostner would win every time. Cohen doesn't have Kostner's skating skills or jump combinations, but who's to say she could not have developed them (or developed something of her own) if they competed together?

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Cohen competed in an era with several ladies with outstanding skating skills and much better than hers- Slutskaya, Kwan, Arakawa, even Suguri, and she never bothered to improve them (well she did up until fall 2002 but then stopped at that point) despite it putting her at a deficit she had to make up in other areas. So why would it have been any different facing Kostner.

And yes the favorites didnt skate their best in 2002 and 2006, which gave Sasha (who herself was a favorite in 2006) a shot to win both times, especialy 2006, and she didnt take it. Kostner did everything possible to win the 2014 Olympics even if she ultimately didnt.

But even with her "deficient skating skills," (I'm not sure how deficient they really were, but I'm not the expert on this) I don't think she was such a non-threat to Slutskaya or Kwan. It'll be difficult for her to win if Irina or Michelle were clean, but there is a chance. Just like Kostner would find it difficult to win against a clean Kim or Asada, though she does have a sliver of a chance. (I find this a more helpful comparison, since Kwan and Slutskaya were the Kim and Asada of their day. Better than comparing triple combos and skating skills from different eras, imo).

Totally agree with the second paragraph. Kostner skated very well at her last Olympics, and Sasha blew hers. Though Kostner has bronze and Sasha silver, I think Sasha will still be stuck with a harsher "choker" reputation, fair or not.

CarneAsada said:

Yuna's so-called conservative skates included harder jumps in the SP and higher BV in the LP. Kostner's BV was lower across both programs, and her LP was watered down with some tight jumps (2A-3T instead of a 3-3, 3S-2T-2T instead of 3S-2T-2Lo).

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Nope. Kostner's BV for the LP was 58.45, Kim's BV was 57.44.
Kostner had 7 triples to Kim's 6. Kim repeated the lutz, so she somewhat made up for the BV. It's insane to think a 7 triples LP has lower BV than a 6 triples LP.

Are we forgetting Kostner's body of work? Hello SPs from 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014. Her Ava Maria alone is better technically and artistically than anything Cohen can dream of. And Kostner skated Ava Maria cleanly how many times? If you pick top 5 SPs from Kostner and compare them to top 5 SPs from Cohen, the ranking would be 1-5. Kostner. 6-10 Cohen.

In term of LPs, Faun, Mozart, and Bolero are so superior to anything Cohen's ever done technically and artistically. Kostner's long line make her look striking on ice. She's in the league of Kim and Asada, not the likes of Cohen and Slutskaya.

It clearly isn't insane if the bv difference was one point. Sasha did not have a very good presence or lasting effect in my opinion. Her overall aura was skittish. She was a poor competitor, and never connected all her special elements cohesively. Carolina was inconsistent, but when she was on, she was on and exuded that.

FlattFan said:

Nope. Kostner's BV for the LP was 58.45, Kim's BV was 57.44.
Kostner had 7 triples to Kim's 6. Kim repeated the lutz, so she somewhat made up for the BV. It's insane to think a 7 triples LP has lower BV than a 6 triples LP.

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Whoops, I was looking at the wrong column. That's embarrassing. Though the fact that their BVs were so close says a lot about what kind of 7-triple program we are talking about. Kostner did produce a challenge to Kim, but she lost out due to GOE (basically what anyone could predict from looking at the way the two of them had scored previously).

FlattFan said:

In term of LPs, Faun, Mozart, and Bolero are so superior to anything Cohen's ever done technically and artistically. Kostner's long line make her look striking on ice. She's in the league of Kim and Asada, not the likes of Cohen and Slutskaya.

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I would rank Slutskaya above Cohen by a significant margin; she is at least in the same league as Kostner. Chicken feeder though she strove to be, she still was capable of jumps and spins Kostner could never do.

CarneAsada said:

I would rank Slutskaya above Cohen by a significant margin; she is at least in the same league as Kostner. Chicken feeder though she strove to be, she still was capable of jumps and spins Kostner could never do.

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Slutskaya skated most of her career before Kostner was even on the scene, so it's hard to directly compare them. She had a much bigger impact on the sport than Kostner ever did. She was an innovator.

Kostner is decent, but there are casual viewers who know Slutskaya's name that probably can't even remember Kostner at this point.

Part of that is likely because they [probably] don't even pay attention as much as they used to, but Kostner hasn't really done anything to move the sport forward the way Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya did in those years. She is not memorable. Kwan and Slutskaya are memorable. The whole sport revolved around those skaters back then - they basically were the sport (Ladies FS).

And that's kind of why a lot of people are simply bored with the sport these days.

We don't have two skaters of great consistency duking it out year after year for the better part of a decade anymore.

Kostner is a good skater, but she is one of the most unreliable competitors to ever grace the sport and to even imply that Slutskaya is forgettable while Kostner is some sort of Goddess is a bit laughable.

Sasha,

CarneAsada said:

I would rank Slutskaya above Cohen by a significant margin; she is at least in the same league as Kostner. Chicken feeder though she strove to be, she still was capable of jumps and spins Kostner could never do.

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In skating history Slutskaya >>> Kostner > Cohen. Kostner may have had more potential and been capable of being a more rounded skater than Slutskaya but she didnt fulfill it. Well actually in the era she skated in Slutskaya had more potential, she could have won 6-8 world/Olympic titles combined if she skated her best at worlds and Olympics more often, but that was also a really weak and shallow era with Kwan her only competition most of her career. Kostner skates in a super tough and deep era so didnt have as many chance, even if she were more consistent.

Slutskaya was one of the best overall technical skaters in history considering jumps, jump combinations, spins, footwork, speed, edges. Maybe even the best but you could make a case for Ito too since in addition to being the best jumper ever, Ito had amazing speed and very good basics, and early in her career (much less so later) good spins and footwork, although terrible spirals and moves in field which make Irina's look godly. Even her spirals which were dissed compared to Kwan and Cohen, were very good, she got her leg well above 90 degrees and had good run to the edge. Artistically she wasnt everyones cup of tea, but her presentation was effective when skated well nonetheless and she had a command of the ice which I know having see her live a couple times and been way more impressed than I was just watching her on TV.

Cohen had some special qualities to her skating but in the end she was an even poorer competitor in the clutch than Kostner, and her 2 biggest weaknesses are the foundation of the sport- jumping and basic skating quality (which largely translated to her problems with the other).

Components said:

Part of that is likely because they [probably] don't even pay attention as much as they used to, but Kostner hasn't really done anything to move the sport forward the way Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya did in those years. She is not memorable. Kwan and Slutskaya are memorable. The whole sport revolved around those skaters back then - they basically were the sport (Ladies FS).

And that's kind of why a lot of people are simply bored with the sport these days.

We don't have two skaters of great consistency duking it out year after year for the better part of a decade anymore.

Kostner is a good skater, but she is one of the most unreliable competitors to ever grace the sport and to even imply that Slutskaya is forgettable while Kostner is some sort of Goddess is a bit laughable.

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Well, that may be your opinion, but I know a lot of people who would disagree with you here. Kostner may not have had the overall results of Irina or Michelle but she has produced some of the most interesting programs of the past quad. She has also made quite a statement in terms of results, especially in the past 4 years. 9 consecutive European medals (5 of them Gold), 6 World medals including a World title and an Olympic Bronze should say it all. And imo her longevity (12 years of competing on the top), her ability to not give up but fight back even stronger after huge disappontments as well as her incredible skating skills make her more than memorable.

Sometimes I just don't see what the point is in comparing skaters' achievements. They have all made an impact in some way or another and all contributed to the sport.

jiggs said:

Well, that may be your opinion, but I know a lot of people who would disagree with you here. Kostner may not have had the overall results of Irina or Michelle but she has produced some of the most interesting programs of the past quad. She has also made quite a statement in terms of results, especially in the past 4 years. 9 consecutive European medals (5 of them Gold), 6 World medals including a World title and an Olympic Bronze should say it all. And imo her longevity (12 years of competing on the top), her ability to not give up but fight back even stronger after huge disappontments as well as her incredible skating skills make her more than memorable.

Sometimes I just don't see what the point is in comparing skaters' achievements. They have all made an impact in some way or another and all contributed to the sport.

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Fair Enough.

@pangtongfan: Can't read your posts, and that isn't changing anytime soon. Ciao!

I've always thought Slutskaya's personality was memorable. I liked her quite a lot.

Her skating was ho-hum. I never warmed up to her performances.

CarneAsada said:

I would rank Slutskaya above Cohen by a significant margin; she is at least in the same league as Kostner. Chicken feeder though she strove to be, she still was capable of jumps and spins Kostner could never do.

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Huh? You can count on one hand how many 3x3 Slutskaya did in her entire career. And I tell you it's less than the number of 3x3 Kostner did this year alone.
For someone known as a jumper, she's not that good a jumper. No flow, flutz, etc...
The only thing she's better is spins.

Forget accomplishments, how many decent SP and LP has Slutskaya done? I would say 1 SP from the 2002 Olympics, and that was it. If that's her best, what does that tell you about her as a skater?

If Kostner had been consistent, she would come into the 2006-2010 quad as the one to beat. With a few years ahead of Kim and Asada, and with technical ability to match both of them, she wouldn't be the one playing catch up with both, she'd be the front runner. But Kostner is the most inconsistent top tier skater in history, so she has a lot of catching up to do with the other girls.

If you put 8 best years of slutskaya in the 2006-2014 period, she wouldn't be half the skater she is. Definitely wouldn't come close to a single world championship.

FlattFan said:

Huh? You can count on one hand how many 3x3 Slutskaya did in her entire career.

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You obviously didnt follow Slutskaya's career very closely. She also did 3-3 combos ending with a triple loop, which Kostner doesnt even attempt. She isnt the 3-3 machine Kim is (granted Kim too doesnt do any 3-3s ending with the more difficult triple loop), but neither is Kostner.

Slutskaya has had MANY short programs better than the 2002 Olympics. Heck that was her poorest short program that season by far which she didnt make a major error. Better short programs than that by Irina- 99/2000 grand prix final, 2000 worlds, 2000/2001 grand prix final, 2000 Skate Canada, 2000/2001 season Russian Nationals, 2000 and 2001 Europeans, 2001 worlds, 2001 goodwill games, 2001/2002 season grand prix final, 2002 worlds, 2004 NHK, 2004 Rostelecom, 2004/2005 season grand prix final, both her fall 2005 grand prix events, 2006 Europeans, 2005 Europeans, 2006 Olympics.