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Thread: Who had more presence in the FS? Cohen vs Kostner

  1. #31
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    It clearly isn't insane if the bv difference was one point. Sasha did not have a very good presence or lasting effect in my opinion. Her overall aura was skittish. She was a poor competitor, and never connected all her special elements cohesively. Carolina was inconsistent, but when she was on, she was on and exuded that.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Nope. Kostner's BV for the LP was 58.45, Kim's BV was 57.44.
    Kostner had 7 triples to Kim's 6. Kim repeated the lutz, so she somewhat made up for the BV. It's insane to think a 7 triples LP has lower BV than a 6 triples LP.
    Whoops, I was looking at the wrong column. That's embarrassing. Though the fact that their BVs were so close says a lot about what kind of 7-triple program we are talking about. Kostner did produce a challenge to Kim, but she lost out due to GOE (basically what anyone could predict from looking at the way the two of them had scored previously).

    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    In term of LPs, Faun, Mozart, and Bolero are so superior to anything Cohen's ever done technically and artistically. Kostner's long line make her look striking on ice. She's in the league of Kim and Asada, not the likes of Cohen and Slutskaya.
    I would rank Slutskaya above Cohen by a significant margin; she is at least in the same league as Kostner. Chicken feeder though she strove to be, she still was capable of jumps and spins Kostner could never do.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    I would rank Slutskaya above Cohen by a significant margin; she is at least in the same league as Kostner. Chicken feeder though she strove to be, she still was capable of jumps and spins Kostner could never do.
    Slutskaya skated most of her career before Kostner was even on the scene, so it's hard to directly compare them. She had a much bigger impact on the sport than Kostner ever did. She was an innovator.

    Kostner is decent, but there are casual viewers who know Slutskaya's name that probably can't even remember Kostner at this point.

    Part of that is likely because they [probably] don't even pay attention as much as they used to, but Kostner hasn't really done anything to move the sport forward the way Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya did in those years. She is not memorable. Kwan and Slutskaya are memorable. The whole sport revolved around those skaters back then - they basically were the sport (Ladies FS).

    And that's kind of why a lot of people are simply bored with the sport these days.

    We don't have two skaters of great consistency duking it out year after year for the better part of a decade anymore.

    Kostner is a good skater, but she is one of the most unreliable competitors to ever grace the sport and to even imply that Slutskaya is forgettable while Kostner is some sort of Goddess is a bit laughable.

  4. #34
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    Sasha,

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    I would rank Slutskaya above Cohen by a significant margin; she is at least in the same league as Kostner. Chicken feeder though she strove to be, she still was capable of jumps and spins Kostner could never do.
    In skating history Slutskaya >>> Kostner > Cohen. Kostner may have had more potential and been capable of being a more rounded skater than Slutskaya but she didnt fulfill it. Well actually in the era she skated in Slutskaya had more potential, she could have won 6-8 world/Olympic titles combined if she skated her best at worlds and Olympics more often, but that was also a really weak and shallow era with Kwan her only competition most of her career. Kostner skates in a super tough and deep era so didnt have as many chance, even if she were more consistent.

    Slutskaya was one of the best overall technical skaters in history considering jumps, jump combinations, spins, footwork, speed, edges. Maybe even the best but you could make a case for Ito too since in addition to being the best jumper ever, Ito had amazing speed and very good basics, and early in her career (much less so later) good spins and footwork, although terrible spirals and moves in field which make Irina's look godly. Even her spirals which were dissed compared to Kwan and Cohen, were very good, she got her leg well above 90 degrees and had good run to the edge. Artistically she wasnt everyones cup of tea, but her presentation was effective when skated well nonetheless and she had a command of the ice which I know having see her live a couple times and been way more impressed than I was just watching her on TV.

    Cohen had some special qualities to her skating but in the end she was an even poorer competitor in the clutch than Kostner, and her 2 biggest weaknesses are the foundation of the sport- jumping and basic skating quality (which largely translated to her problems with the other).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Part of that is likely because they [probably] don't even pay attention as much as they used to, but Kostner hasn't really done anything to move the sport forward the way Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya did in those years. She is not memorable. Kwan and Slutskaya are memorable. The whole sport revolved around those skaters back then - they basically were the sport (Ladies FS).

    And that's kind of why a lot of people are simply bored with the sport these days.

    We don't have two skaters of great consistency duking it out year after year for the better part of a decade anymore.

    Kostner is a good skater, but she is one of the most unreliable competitors to ever grace the sport and to even imply that Slutskaya is forgettable while Kostner is some sort of Goddess is a bit laughable.
    Well, that may be your opinion, but I know a lot of people who would disagree with you here. Kostner may not have had the overall results of Irina or Michelle but she has produced some of the most interesting programs of the past quad. She has also made quite a statement in terms of results, especially in the past 4 years. 9 consecutive European medals (5 of them Gold), 6 World medals including a World title and an Olympic Bronze should say it all. And imo her longevity (12 years of competing on the top), her ability to not give up but fight back even stronger after huge disappontments as well as her incredible skating skills make her more than memorable.

    Sometimes I just don't see what the point is in comparing skaters' achievements. They have all made an impact in some way or another and all contributed to the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jiggs View Post
    Well, that may be your opinion, but I know a lot of people who would disagree with you here. Kostner may not have had the overall results of Irina or Michelle but she has produced some of the most interesting programs of the past quad. She has also made quite a statement in terms of results, especially in the past 4 years. 9 consecutive European medals (5 of them Gold), 6 World medals including a World title and an Olympic Bronze should say it all. And imo her longevity (12 years of competing on the top), her ability to not give up but fight back even stronger after huge disappontments as well as her incredible skating skills make her more than memorable.

    Sometimes I just don't see what the point is in comparing skaters' achievements. They have all made an impact in some way or another and all contributed to the sport.
    Fair Enough.

    @pangtongfan: Can't read your posts, and that isn't changing anytime soon. Ciao!

  8. #38
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    I've always thought Slutskaya's personality was memorable. I liked her quite a lot.

    Her skating was ho-hum. I never warmed up to her performances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    I would rank Slutskaya above Cohen by a significant margin; she is at least in the same league as Kostner. Chicken feeder though she strove to be, she still was capable of jumps and spins Kostner could never do.
    Huh? You can count on one hand how many 3x3 Slutskaya did in her entire career. And I tell you it's less than the number of 3x3 Kostner did this year alone.
    For someone known as a jumper, she's not that good a jumper. No flow, flutz, etc...
    The only thing she's better is spins.

    Forget accomplishments, how many decent SP and LP has Slutskaya done? I would say 1 SP from the 2002 Olympics, and that was it. If that's her best, what does that tell you about her as a skater?

    If Kostner had been consistent, she would come into the 2006-2010 quad as the one to beat. With a few years ahead of Kim and Asada, and with technical ability to match both of them, she wouldn't be the one playing catch up with both, she'd be the front runner. But Kostner is the most inconsistent top tier skater in history, so she has a lot of catching up to do with the other girls.

    If you put 8 best years of slutskaya in the 2006-2014 period, she wouldn't be half the skater she is. Definitely wouldn't come close to a single world championship.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Huh? You can count on one hand how many 3x3 Slutskaya did in her entire career.
    You obviously didnt follow Slutskaya's career very closely. She also did 3-3 combos ending with a triple loop, which Kostner doesnt even attempt. She isnt the 3-3 machine Kim is (granted Kim too doesnt do any 3-3s ending with the more difficult triple loop), but neither is Kostner.

    Slutskaya has had MANY short programs better than the 2002 Olympics. Heck that was her poorest short program that season by far which she didnt make a major error. Better short programs than that by Irina- 99/2000 grand prix final, 2000 worlds, 2000/2001 grand prix final, 2000 Skate Canada, 2000/2001 season Russian Nationals, 2000 and 2001 Europeans, 2001 worlds, 2001 goodwill games, 2001/2002 season grand prix final, 2002 worlds, 2004 NHK, 2004 Rostelecom, 2004/2005 season grand prix final, both her fall 2005 grand prix events, 2006 Europeans, 2005 Europeans, 2006 Olympics.

  11. #41
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    I like Kostner's skating more than Slutskaya's, but Slutskaya contributed more to the sport. You can't compare the 3x3 Slutskaya was doing in the early 2000s to what Kostner is doing this season. The sport advances. That's a good thing, no? There are some people who are way ahead of their time (Midori Ito), but Slutskaya deserves credit was being one of the top two skaters of her generation. While Carolina, good as she was, played second fiddle to the Yuna-Mao rivalry even in her final peak years. A comparison between Kostner and Cohen, in terms of iconic ability, is more fair--Irina is on another level, in terms of impact and success, even if her performances are not as pleasing to the eye.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    You obviously didnt follow Slutskaya's career very closely. She also did 3-3 combos ending with a triple loop, which Kostner doesnt even attempt. She isnt the 3-3 machine Kim is (granted Kim too doesnt do any 3-3s ending with the more difficult triple loop), but neither is Kostner.
    Her 3x3 compilations are on youtube. None of those -3loop combo would ratify. And you can count on there how many she did in competition. Don't count practice or warm up. Not many 3x3.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I like Kostner's skating more than Slutskaya's, but Slutskaya contributed more to the sport. You can't compare the 3x3 Slutskaya was doing in the early 2000s to what Kostner is doing this season. The sport advances. That's a good thing, no? There are some people who are way ahead of their time (Midori Ito), but Slutskaya deserves credit was being one of the top two skaters of her generation. While Carolina, good as she was, played second fiddle to the Yuna-Mao rivalry even in her final peak years. A comparison between Kostner and Cohen, in terms of iconic ability, is more fair--Irina is on another level, in terms of impact and success, even if her performances are not as pleasing to the eye.
    What is Irina's contribution to the sport? Did she advance something? Did her programs open up a new direction? Did anyone rewatch any of Irina's programs for idea? Hehe, Cohen has more contribution to the sport with her style of skating than Irina even though Irina is a better skater.

  14. #44
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    From Wikipedia:
    - Invented the double Biellmann spin with foot change
    - First woman to land triple lutz, triple loop combination in competition (2000 Grand Prix Final)
    - First woman to land a triple salchow, triple loop, double toe-loop combination (2001 World Championships)

    And no, she didn't land triple axels and she wasn't the first to land 3x3 or something. But it's unfair to say she innovated nothing. She definitely pushed the sport athletically (Kwan did to some extent, with her 7-triple skates, but her greater contribution was the "artist on ice" image). Heck, we could even say she kept athleticism in the sport, because for a while there Kwan was winning short programs with a triple toe loop as the third jumping pass (I love, love Michelle, so don't take this as a hater comment. Just need to give Irina her due).

    I'm not saying Cohen and Kostner contributed nothing. Cohen's hyper-flexibility and I-spin were definitely influential. Kostner staying on top so late in her career is magnificent. But you can't exactly call her 3x3 combos innovative when she wasn't even the best at them for her era; the triple-triple has become so ubiquitous now, and that's more due to Irina than Carolina (and due to Yuna, of course).

  15. #45
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    is this really a question ? aside from Sasha's spiral and spin, she hasn't achieved much compared to Carolina
    a World Champion, OBM triumphs over a World silver and OSM

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