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Thread: Who had more presence in the FS? Cohen vs Kostner

  1. #46
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    Well, I think Caro has better skating skills and speed. So of course I prefer Caro, given that both of them are inconsistent.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    From Wikipedia:
    - Invented the double Biellmann spin with foot change
    - First woman to land triple lutz, triple loop combination in competition (2000 Grand Prix Final)
    - First woman to land a triple salchow, triple loop, double toe-loop combination (2001 World Championships)

    And no, she didn't land triple axels and she wasn't the first to land 3x3 or something. But it's unfair to say she innovated nothing. She definitely pushed the sport athletically (Kwan did to some extent, with her 7-triple skates, but her greater contribution was the "artist on ice" image). Heck, we could even say she kept athleticism in the sport, because for a while there Kwan was winning short programs with a triple toe loop as the third jumping pass (I love, love Michelle, so don't take this as a hater comment. Just need to give Irina her due).
    I would give her credit for the double Biellmann spin with footchange.
    I wouldn't give her any credit for advancing the technical aspect of the sport. Really, -3loop combo has been done about 15 years before her time by Midori. Midori had a bunch of different 3x3, and 2A-3Sal.
    Kostner had 3Lz-3T, 3F-3T, 3F-3T-2Lo, 3T-3T, 2A-3Sal. No one is saying Kostner pushed the technical boundary, so no one should be saying Slutskaya pushed the technical boundary.
    Aside from the spins, Slutskaya didn't give anything else to the sport but tacky and cheesy programs.

    I'm not saying Cohen and Kostner contributed nothing. Cohen's hyper-flexibility and I-spin were definitely influential. Kostner staying on top so late in her career is magnificent. But you can't exactly call her 3x3 combos innovative when she wasn't even the best at them for her era; the triple-triple has become so ubiquitous now, and that's more due to Irina than Carolina (and due to Yuna, of course).
    Cohen caved out a different path. She was the ballerina on ice. She's quite influential to a lot of young girls. It's a different way of approaching figure skating, which is more than inventing a new spins.

    Kostner showcased her versatility in her body of work. Taking on interesting and experimental music.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    is this really a question ? aside from Sasha's spiral and spin, she hasn't achieved much compared to Carolina
    a World Champion, OBM triumphs over a World silver and OSM
    Kostner also has an astonishing 6 world medals. Sasha only has 3 (still impressive). Kostner has something like 5 medals at the grand prix final too. Cohen has a title, just as Kostner does, and that is it. Kostner has all those European titles; while Cohen only has 1 National title, less than Czisny and Wagner. Other than a slightly lower color Olympic medal Kostner has Cohen beat hands down everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Kostner also has an astonishing 6 world medals. Sasha only has 3 (still impressive). Kostner has something like 5 medals at the grand prix final too. Cohen has a title, just as Kostner does, and that is it. Kostner has all those European titles; while Cohen only has 1 National title, less than Czisny and Wagner. Other than a slightly lower color Olympic medal Kostner has Cohen beat hands down everywhere.
    agreed, a multiple World medalist, Multple GPF medalist, multiple European Champion, not comparable here
    even Kostner's Nationals record she beats Cohen

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I would give her credit for the double Biellmann spin with footchange.
    I wouldn't give her any credit for advancing the technical aspect of the sport. Really, -3loop combo has been done about 15 years before her time by Midori. Midori had a bunch of different 3x3, and 2A-3Sal.
    Kostner had 3Lz-3T, 3F-3T, 3F-3T-2Lo, 3T-3T, 2A-3Sal. No one is saying Kostner pushed the technical boundary, so no one should be saying Slutskaya pushed the technical boundary.
    Aside from the spins, Slutskaya didn't give anything else to the sport but tacky and cheesy programs.
    Triple lutz-triple loop is still one of the hardest combos. Irina did it 14 years ago, if Wikipedia is correct. She wasn't consistent, but she pushed the technical boundaries for her time. "She's not Midori" isn't grounds for saying she innovated nothing. Midori, as I noted, was far ahead of her time and comparing anyone against her is going to make the other woman look shabby.

    Nobody credits Kostner for innovating because she did those combinations in an era where other women were doing similar or even better combos. Slutskaya did those things in an era where she was nearly the only one. You can't compare their combinations head-to-head and use that as proof for Slutskaya innovating nothing. You have to compare them against their competitors. In that case, the verdict is clear: Irina was one of the greatest athletic skaters of her day, and she basically kept that side of the sport alive (while Kwan was focusing on the artistry). Doesn't mean Irina was a "better skater" (I'm not sure I think so either--not a fan of her style), but she is more iconic for a good reason.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    agreed, a multiple World medalist, Multple GPF medalist, multiple European Champion, not comparable here
    even Kostner's Nationals record she beats Cohen
    Well you cant really compare Italian Nationals to U.S, but even then Sasha has less U.S titles than the likes of Wagner and Czisny like I said. As for the "poor Sasha had to compete against Michelle" excuse, Sasha got to compete at 2 Nationals without Michelle and won only 1, and Michelle was able to win Nationals in 2000 and 2005 with performances not even as good as Flatt in 2010 and probably Nagasu in 2008, all because Sasha as usual fell. The judges were also waiting to hand Sasha the 2003 and 2004 titles on a platter had she skated cleanly, even with Kwan's brilliant skates, and as usual she took the platter just as Chan did in Sochi.

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    I have to say I find these types of threads amusing and extremely frustrating at the same time. Amusing because everyone should have a preference of one skater over another, frustrating because all the haters feel the need to tear apart anyone who has a different opinion than their own.

    Both Sasha and Carolina have left their mark on the sport, I prefer Sasha but that doesn't mean I dislike Carolina. Each have strengths, including superior musicality and interpretation that should not be dismissed by anyone.

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    Most people in this thread talk about results and medals, but taking this aside, I can honestly say that Sasha's Romeo and Juliet in Torino is one of the most beautiful and magic programs I've seen. I watched it and rewatched it maybe a hundred times. Even with two falls!!

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Are we forgetting Kostner's body of work? Hello SPs from 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014. Her Ava Maria alone is better technically and artistically than anything Cohen can dream of. And Kostner skated Ava Maria cleanly how many times? If you pick top 5 SPs from Kostner and compare them to top 5 SPs from Cohen, the ranking would be 1-5. Kostner. 6-10 Cohen.
    Kostner had some great SPs, but Cohen also had iconic SPs that matched or exceed Kostner's SPs. Her best ones were phenomenal and would definitely NOT all be in the same 6-10 range when stacked up against Kostner's:

    Dark Eyes
    Malaguena
    My Sweet and Tender Beast

    I personally prefer all three of the above SPs to Kostner's Ave Maria.

    Plus, in terms of LPs, Cohen's Romeo and Juliet LP stacks up to Faun, Mozart and Bolero.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYscorp6 View Post
    I have to say I find these types of threads amusing and extremely frustrating at the same time. Amusing because everyone should have a preference of one skater over another, frustrating because all the haters feel the need to tear apart anyone who has a different opinion than their own.

    Both Sasha and Carolina have left their mark on the sport, I prefer Sasha but that doesn't mean I dislike Carolina. Each have strengths, including superior musicality and interpretation that should not be dismissed by anyone.
    Agreed. I like both of them. Both have their strengths and obviously many have a preference, but I think what's implicit is that both Sasha and Kostner have a presence, and in terms of who has better presence, I prefer Sasha's overall packaging to Kostner's even if Kostner has managed to elevate herself in these past few years. I think that's also key, Sasha throughout her entire career just had that magic to her skating, whereas Kostner only recently acquired it.

    I also wouldn't use Kostner's WC gold as a huge selling point. That was one of the most technically weak (though artistically strong) performances (SP+LP) to ever win Worlds, and she was extremely lucky Mao was in a transition period, Kim and Rochette didn't compete, and that her main competition was Leonova. Her Sochi skates is obviously a much greater indication of Kostner at her potential (which, to be honest, wasn't exactly something we saw often). I think, for me, Kostner's performance would kind of fall flat if she didn't land the jumps, whereas I could watch Cohen do her programs even without the jumps and be more entertained (she, however, was not a very consistent skater either). Her Bolero in Sochi is miles above her Bolero in Saitama which is why I was dumbfounded that her PCS was actually better given all her errors.

  11. #56
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    BTW Flattfan is wrong. Ito did not do any triple-triple combination ending with a triple loop (she did double loop-triple toe which for the time was incredibly hard). Lipinski and Slutskaya were the first ones ever doing triple-triples ending with the 3 loop. Slutskaya started doing the triple salchow-triple loop cleanly often only weeks after Tara landed the first ever one, and was the first women ever to do the triple lutz-triple loop, and would do it several more times after that. She also became the first women ever to do two different 3-3s (combos, not either as a sequence) in the same program and it was triple lutz-triple loop and triple salchow-triple loop. 2 years later Sarah became the 2nd (although I believe Irina had done atleast 1 other time since) with her badly cheated triple salchow-triple loop and triple toe-triple loop which still pales in comparision.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I also wouldn't use Kostner's WC gold as a huge selling point. That was one of the most technically weak (though artistically strong) performances (SP+LP) to ever win Worlds
    By that logic we should disregard Sasha's Oly silver too as she wouldnt have even medalled most Olympics with her 2 falls. Lucky for her Turin was a relatively weak field to start with and very poorly skated event. Arakawa with only 5 triples and a triple-double in the short program easily won the Olympic gold by almost 10 points. If Sasha's Olympic silver is some kind of "edge" on Kostner even though her Olympic bronze skates (which 95% believe was robbed of atleast a silver above Sotnikova, if not a gold) would crush Sasha in 2006 even when being translated to consider the techical advancements of the sport, then Kostner's world title sure as heck is as an edge on Cohen who only had to stand upright to win the 04 and 06 worlds (and probably even 06 Olympics) given the other performances, and couldnt even produce that. Kostner atleast when only having to stand upright, did as needed. Cohen couldnt even beat Meissner to win a world title, so there is no way to discredit Kostner's world title by comparision. When did Sasha ever give a performance at worlds and Olympics that if it had hypothetically won gold wouldnt have been one of the "technically weakest" considering the time to ever win worlds, as much or more than Kostner's winning skates in 2012. Yeah thats right, never. Hence why she never won worlds or Olympics to begin with.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    By that logic we should disregard Sasha's Oly silver too as she wouldnt have even medalled most Olympics with those skates, and the 2 falls. Lucky for her Turin was a relatively weak field to start with and very poorly skated event. If Sasha's Olympic silver is some kind of "edge" on Kostner even though her Olympic bronze with skates that would crush Sasha in 2006 even translated to consider the techical advancements of the sport, then Kostner's world title sure as heck is as an edge on Cohen who only had to stand upright to win the 04 and 06 worlds (and probably even 06 Olympics) given the other performances, and couldnt even produce that. Kostner atleast when only having to stand upright, did as needed. Cohen couldnt even beat Meissner to win a world title, so there is no way to discredit Kostner's world title by comparision.
    If we want to talk about achievements, both Kostner's WC gold and Cohen's OSM weren't exactly noteworthy performances of either of their careers, or as general placements... compared to say Kim's WC2013 gold, or Kwan's OSM. I never said Cohen's OSM is an edge on Kostner's OBM. Kostner's 2014 Olympics OBM performances would have crushed many Olympic performances, including Hughes and Arakawa (and Sotnikova's if it weren't in Russia) and Kwan (yes, 1998 Kwan).

    Let's be honest, Kostner only had to stand upright to win 2012 Worlds, given the other performances. That SP+LP performance would have placed her 4th at 2013 Worlds, 6th in Sochi, and 8th in Saitama. So my "logic" was that it shouldn't be seen as a huge consideration in her favour when comparing the two (especially when the topic is about presence in the FS, and not titles), just as I would never use Cohen's OSM performance to support the suggestion that she's a better skater, when she was clearly the best of the worst after Arakawa, and arguably gifted with silver at that.

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    ^ That is correct, Caro only had to stand upright. But it doesn't take away the fact that she still had to deliver when it counted, and that is exactly what she did in Nice.
    Sasha also had moments where she only had to stand upright in order to win, yet she never managed to do so when it counted at Worlds. That's why Caro has a World title and Sasha doesn't!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jiggs View Post
    ^ That is correct, Caro only had to stand upright. But it doesn't take away the fact that she still had to deliver when it counted, and that is exactly what she did in Nice.
    Sasha also had moments where she only had to stand upright in order to win, yet she never managed to do so when it counted at Worlds. That's why Caro has a World title and Sasha doesn't!
    True, but that has little to do with the original topic of the thread. Kostner was able to get it together when it counted this past season, and in 2012 Worlds she seized the opportunity when the field wasn't at its best. I don't think anyone is saying Ando, for example has more presence than Cohen because she has two World titles (in weaker Worlds, no less), or that Meissner has more presence than Cohen because she was able to win while Cohen faltered.

    (This is not to diminish Kostner or Ando's world titles. They won them fair and square, but you gotta call a spade a spade and acknowledge that they didn't exactly win them with the most technically superior performances relative to others who have won Worlds.)

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