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Thread: Who had more presence in the FS? Cohen vs Kostner

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Kostner had some great SPs, but Cohen also had iconic SPs that matched or exceed Kostner's SPs. Her best ones were phenomenal and would definitely NOT all be in the same 6-10 range when stacked up against Kostner's:

    Dark Eyes
    Malaguena
    My Sweet and Tender Beast

    I personally prefer all three of the above SPs to Kostner's Ave Maria.

    Plus, in terms of LPs, Cohen's Romeo and Juliet LP stacks up to Faun, Mozart and Bolero.
    I don't know about you, but Ava Maria has more intricacy and difficulty than all 3 SPs combined. If you stack them up back to back, I don't know anyone but Sasha's parents would rank them higher. Figure skating is still a sport, correct? Under what universe would any of Sasha's SPs place higher than Ava Maria?

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    Midori did a bunch of 2Lo-3Lo cleanly. The rule didn't allow 3x3 in the SP, so she did what she did. If she wants to do 3-3Lo, she can easily do it.
    Slutskaya's 3Lo combo are 99.9% cheated anyway. Who cares about those terrible jumps. They are like Hughes'

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I also wouldn't use Kostner's WC gold as a huge selling point. That was one of the most technically weak (though artistically strong) performances (SP+LP) to ever win Worlds
    What do you use for Sasha as a huge selling point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYscorp6 View Post
    I have to say I find these types of threads amusing and extremely frustrating at the same time. Amusing because everyone should have a preference of one skater over another, frustrating because all the haters feel the need to tear apart anyone who has a different opinion than their own.

    Both Sasha and Carolina have left their mark on the sport, I prefer Sasha but that doesn't mean I dislike Carolina. Each have strengths, including superior musicality and interpretation that should not be dismissed by anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    What do you use for Sasha as a huge selling point?
    Exactly. If Kostner's world title goes out the window in his fantasy world so does Cohen's Olympic silver, and now Sasha truly has nothing in the comparision. Unless one is going to argue falling twice is better than Kostner's gorgeous and totally clean LP with better quality jumps and skating skills that Sasha at her peak could only dream of, but with only 5 triples.

    Kostner has 7 total world and Olympic medals. Sasha barely over half of that. Kostner has 5 grand prix final medals vs 1 for Sasha, and many more European titles than Sasha has National titles. This despite that Kostner competed in an era with far more depth than Cohen did.


    Quote Originally Posted by jiggs View Post
    ^ That is correct, Caro only had to stand upright. But it doesn't take away the fact that she still had to deliver when it counted, and that is exactly what she did in Nice.
    Sasha also had moments where she only had to stand upright in order to win, yet she never managed to do so when it counted at Worlds. That's why Caro has a World title and Sasha doesn't!
    Exactly. It really isnt remotedly complicated. As I already said Sasha would have won the 2004 and 2006 worlds (due to Shizuka's lack of rep value at the time of the 04 worlds even though her actual performance should have been almost unbeatable for Sasha) and maybe even the 2006 Olympics just doing Kostner's so called "weak" worlds winning LP. Unfortunately with the big gaping opportunity she still goofed it up.

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    This despite that Kostner competed in an era with far more depth than Cohen did.
    You don't consider Kwan and Slutskaya "depth"? Granted, it was often injured Kwan and extremely ill Slutskaya that faced Sasha, but I wouldn't say the entire era didn't have depth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    You don't consider Kwan and Slutskaya "depth"? Granted, it was often injured Kwan and extremely ill Slutskaya that faced Sasha, but I wouldn't say the entire era didn't have depth.
    First off Kwan and Slutskaya were NEVER strong at the same time ever again after 2002. Sasha's first year as a contender was 2002, but most of her real time as a contender was 2003-2006. Kwan was good in 2003 and 2004, Slutskaya in 2005 and 2006. The alternate person barely even skated, let alone at a high level in the alternate years, mostly due to health problems.

    No I wouldnt say Sasha's prime years had much depth

    2003- Sokolova won silver at worlds. Anyone who has ever seen her skate, that is enough.
    2004- 23 year old Shizuka who has been on the senior interational scene 7 years and never placed higher than 8th at worlds was the shock winner of worlds. Now I am thrilled this breakthrough was possible as she is an excellent skater, but particularly in the 6.0 days (and this worlds was scored under 6.0) that kind of out of the blue breakthrough for a veteran simply couldnt happen unless there was a gaping hole and lack of depth near the top. The judges tried desperately and nearly gave Cohen the gold despite a really weak and major choke of a LP. Sebeysten was European Champion this year. Liashenko won two grand prixs, and Suguri won the grand prix final. Kwan barely competed and had the most wild array of wierd and very unlucky problems at worlds, and was still close to winning the LP (with only 5 triples) or doing better than bronze. Still worlds was a pretty good event I will admit, and probably the high point of the quad other than Slutskaya's skating in the 04-05 season, and Mao's debut season.
    2005- The gold and bronze winners were about 25 points at these worlds, and that is despite Slutskaya having major built in deductions in both programs (Kim had a similar margin at the 2010 Olympics but was absolutely flawless and dream like there).
    2006- I dont even need to say anything.

    Now compare to Kostner who faces multi world champions Kim, Asada, Ando, and two Olympic Champions in Sotnikova and Lipnitskaya (granted only at the end of her career), and Rochette who is an excellent skater and IMO like years better than someone like say Fumie Suguri despite that Suguri compiled similar achievements in her era.

  8. #68
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    My reply is simple:

    Sasha gave me the vibe of a pretty lady on ice.
    Caro gave the the vibe of a charming and mature women on ice.

    And I prefer the latter.

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    Okay, yeah, I see your point when broken down like that. Imo, Kwan totally could've taken 2004 Worlds, which would've pushed Sasha down even further. A series of really strange circumstances stopped that: uncharacteristic qualifying round (there isn't even a QR anymore) + SP time deduction on an otherwise beautiful program + her LP performance being disrupted before she was about to start (still only 1 judge away from winning the LP; she definitely would've won had she not doubled that second lutz).

    No connection with the topic, but happy to see a nod to Rochette.

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    Kwan would have been 2nd in the SP behind Cohen without the time deduction which was a madatory .1 to .2 off on both marks. Shizuka meanwhile would have been 5th in the short behind Cohen, Kwan, Ando, Kostner, had she been deducted for two cheated jumps, which she wasnt. She was given a small deduction for being short of required revolution on her flying camel spin, but not the other two mistakes. Kwan even with her qualifying round placement, with a 2nd place in the short program above Shizuka, would have won the gold had she just done her 2nd triple lutz in the LP. Meanwhile had she skated well in the qualifying round she could have won it all even with her 4th place to Shizuka's 2nd in the short (since Sasha stumbled to only 3rd in the LP), and since she very nearly beat Shizuka's better LP in the final round, I am sure she could have done it in qualifying. She just needed 2 of the 3 programs/circumstances to go differently, not all 3.

    Shizuka's spectacular LP with only two triple-triples was as undermarked as her SP was overscored, and should have had all 1st place votes compared to how Kwan and Cohen skated that night, and had no chance of being beaten by even a clean 7 triple Cohen (let alone Kwan who only had 6 planned). Hilarious contrast to the huge scores for her 5 triple LP in Turin which Cohen probably needed a clean 7 triple (and gold medal favorite Slutskaya a clean 6 triple) to beat. Just shows the difference in being a former World Champion. Cohen meanwhile was way overscored for her quite weak LP performance, and shouldnt have had even a single ordinal higher than 3rd for the LP. She did kill that SP though and was the clear winner of that.

  11. #71
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    This one is tough for me. Sasha is probably my all time favorite lady. She just had a sparkle and refinement that was attractive to my eye. Carolina has had longevity, many good results and power. Both were inconsistent. I call it a tie.

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    Yeah, Kwan didn't even all three rounds to change. But it wasn't her lucky night(s) at all.

    Am I crazy for preferring Kwan's SP to Cohen's? I'll trust your judgement that Kwan had no chance of winning the SP, since it's all water under the bridge now and I don't have the energy or technical expertise to analyze the SPs.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I preferred Kwan's short in some ways, but Cohen's elements were mostly superior- much stronger spins (all 3), even better spirals sequence, about equal jumps and footwork, and her presentation was also objectively first rate, so there is no way to deny Sasha first in the short program IMO.

    And based on the actual scores yes she had no chance of winning the SP even without the deduction.
    I thought Sasha had a flutz on the lutz while Michelle didn't (or nowhere near as badly, at any rate)? Agree on the spins. And the technical mark is the tie-breaker, admittedly.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I don't know about you, but Ava Maria has more intricacy and difficulty than all 3 SPs combined. If you stack them up back to back, I don't know anyone but Sasha's parents would rank them higher. Figure skating is still a sport, correct? Under what universe would any of Sasha's SPs place higher than Ava Maria?
    Ave Maria is a beautiful program, but it isn't that intricate of a program choreographically. Maybe if you actually watched Cohen's programs, you'll notice Cohen had some interesting and difficult transitions and linking movements in her SPs (e.g. the slide spiral transition in her Dark Eyes, how she links the 3F right into the sit spin).

    For PCS, I personally would knock Cohen far down below Kostner in skating skills, but I'd give her Dark Eyes better or comparable marks in CH, IN and PE. As for TES, Kostner obviously has better jumps and footwork, but Cohen has better spins.

    You don't have to tear down Cohen to make Kostner look good. Kostner has many amazing qualities that Cohen lacks, but Cohen also has great talents and skills that Kostner doesn't have. Personally, I prefer Kostner as a skater but you're really selling Cohen short here.

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    I went back and watched Cohen's SLC SP, linked upthread. I just can't get past the skating on the flats of her blades/shallow edges, the quick multiple crossovers generating so little speed/power. Pretty much what I always think of when I think of Sasha. I should re-watch a FS since that is in the thread title, but I don't really want to.

    I'm not sure either Kostner or Cohen are ones I would point to as examples of huge presence on the ice. But I do think Kostner has had more memorable Free Skates -- Bolero, Mozart Piano Concerto, Air on the G String. Though I love her Pachelbel Canon short possibly best of all her programs. Oh, and her speed does tend to translate to command of the ice, especially in person -- so ...

    Again for me, Kostner no question. And whereas Cohen had some nice accomplishments, I really would be surprised if she has much name recognition anywhere but in the US at this point.

    I don't know that Kostner's rep or legacy will be long lasting, though. I don't really have a sense of how well known she is in Europe. I wouldn't guess that she will have too much of a greater longterm legacy than Cohen, if that is what the thread is getting at. So probably some of my reaction is just that Kostner is a current skater (or at least was at the end of the season), and Cohen has been retired for a while now.

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