ISU Communication 1861: Updated Rules for Singles and Pairs Skating | Page 3 | Golden Skate

ISU Communication 1861: Updated Rules for Singles and Pairs Skating

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The judges only look at the tech panel's decision? Can they question back if they see some unreasonable calls? :unsure:

The judges never see the level calls during the competition. For spins and steps, the judges are only responsible for evaluating how well the elements were done and how they fit into the program as a whole (e.g., choreography) -- the difficulty is not their responsibility under IJS. There are so many details for tech panels to learn and remember that no judge is also going to keep track of the features at the same time that they're judging the quality, unless they are also technical controllers or technical specialists and have done those tasks so often that it has become second nature to them.

The judges do see the <, <<, e, and ! calls at the end of each program, and they may also see the new s and ss calls. For the jump calls, they are required to reduce the GOE from what they would have given without those errors, and for << or e calls they are required to give negative GOE (no higher than -1).

If the judge saw an error that wasn't called, that judge is welcome to reduce the GOE more severely, based on what they actually saw.

If they did not see an error that was called, they can be more generous with their GOE reductions. E.g., if the judge thought "That was a great lutz! I would give it at least +2, maybe even +3" and then the tech panel calls it as ! and <, the judge can still give it +1.

If the tech panel called e and <<, the base value would only be 50% of the total, but the judge could remain generous, awarding all the positive bullet points before reducing down to -1, rather than -3 as would be expected for both those errors and

However, there isn't any mechanism for one judge or even all the judges to say "That jump looked fully rotated, or close to it, and the takeoff edge looked correct. We have replay too, we reviewed it, and we didn't see the errors at all, or didn't see them as being severe. The calls really should have been ! and <, if anything, not e and <<, and therefore the skater should have gotten full base value. You were wrong, tech panel -- go make the change officially and give that skater back the points she deserved."

The best the judges can do for a skater in that situation is to give the highest appropriate GOE for the element, and not to penalize at all in PCS. If a jump with an e call is nonetheless beautiful, judges can also take that beauty into account under the Performance/Execution component.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
The best the judges can do for a skater in that situation is to give the highest appropriate GOE for the element, and not to penalize at all in PCS. If a jump with an e call is nonetheless beautiful, judges can also take that beauty into account under the Performance/Execution component.
Thank you very much for your explanation. I hope the tech specialist will not use this chance to downgrade their unfavourite. :think:
I can image Shin Amano being utterly happy right now. :unsure:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
If anyone involved with broadcasting reads these threads..this is for you. Please hire @Gkelly to your broadcast staff. Lets set up a spot down at ice level, supply all camera angles used, supply one headset, and let the analysis and explanations begin. :popcorn:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Yes, I meant the technical panel in terms of who gets the power in discerning if the requirements of an element are achieved.

I think there are going to be a lot of pissy people next season.

Murakami must have ditched her lutz by now. Imagine getting 50% for an "e"< ... that's some bs.

I also find some of the scenarios weird... like, how can a Layback Spin achieve a level 4, and then get 50% deducted?! :laugh: So a level 4 spin with 50% deductions is worth as little/less than a level B spin with no deductions?
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
These 50% and 70% deductions seem to be an attempt to get skaters to really clean up their technique instead of just do a flutz and take the minor hit in GOE. But to remove 30% of a jump's BV just because of a slight wrong edge versus a severe wrong edge is giving too much power to the tech specialist.
Agree with your whole post, but this part especially :thumbsup:

I think that this will lead to more and more skaters (I'm thinking about Murakami, Nagasu, Cesario, Pogorilaya for example) presenting either the flip or the lutz, not both, since their BV could be really affected: a clean 3S/3T/3Lo will receive a lot more points than a 3Lz with the "e" now... :slink:
 

FS.Addict

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Lets see, there are more features to get levels now for spins including difficult entrance or difficult change of position without chamge of foot.
More body parts to consider when they talk about body movement in step sequences.

Does somebody know the difference between "Difficult entrance into a spin" and "Difficult variation of flying entry" ? Is there any difficult entrance that is not a flying entry and that i'm not aware of ?

And what's a "Difficult change of position on the same foot"...

I hope we'll get more explanations soon with the technical handbook.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Does somebody know the difference between "Difficult entrance into a spin" and "Difficult variation of flying entry" ? Is there any difficult entrance that is not a flying entry and that i'm not aware of ?

And what's a "Difficult change of position on the same foot"...

I hope we'll get more explanations soon with the technical handbook.

That's what I'm wondering.

I also noticed "clear change of speed" doesn't apply to I-spins/upright spins, except Biellmanns, which applies to many ladies (e.g. Julia) who would otherwise get credit for it.

A difficult change of position is weird because I thought a "difficult variation" gets the level, but if the process of changing position is difficult (for some reason, Courtney Hicks' weird spin comes to mind, Julia's former sit spin over her head, or Sotnikova's flying camel the way her leg goes up) then you get a level?

As far as difficult entrance, maybe things like turning 3's into a back camel counts? It's so weird, lol.
 

FS.Addict

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
I also noticed "clear change of speed" doesn't apply to I-spins/upright spins, except Biellmanns, which applies to many ladies (e.g. Julia) who would otherwise get credit for it.

A difficult change of position is weird because I thought a "difficult variation" gets the level, but if the process of changing position is difficult (for some reason, Courtney Hicks' weird spin comes to mind, Julia's former sit spin over her head, or Sotnikova's flying camel the way her leg goes up) then you get a level?

I think it does not matter for the ladies doing these spins, because they easily achieve the 8 revolutions level :p But the change of position... If you do a change of position, you better do another difficult variation instead of guessing they will call the "change of position"...

As far as difficult entrance, maybe things like turning 3's into a back camel counts? It's so weird, lol.

This is the first (and only) thing that came to my mind !
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
It's such a silly subjectivity... like, I assume a camel to difficult sit isn't considered a difficult change of position, but a boxcutter to a Biellmann is? What about a flying camel to sideways camel... I mean, you already get a level for the variation, but is turning your torso skywards considered difficult?

Hah, the only "difficult changes" I'm seeing is that whole document. :laugh:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I don't know what they have in mind as "difficult change of position."

One possibility that comes to mind would be something like going from sitspin to camel spin, which is much more difficult than going from camel to sit, especially in a forward spin.

They need to spell out what kind of changes would qualify as difficult, for both the skaters/coaches and the tech panel.
 

GF2445

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
How about fans? :slink:

Amen. Besides, who made up these rules?
On another topic, i have optimism that anonymous judging is going to get the boot. If the USA support removing it, pretty much all western nations will vote to remove it (maybe not canada as david dore the vice president of the isu always sides with the isu delegation) and if russia support removing it, all the former soviet nations and east europe will follow in their lead. Japan probably wants this gone as well as south korea following sochi. And good job to greece for standing up and it might give small nation memebers of the isu confidence to follow in their lead. They need a two thirds majority to pass a motion so we are in good hands
 

justastro

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
If these new rules stick around till 2018, I see another massive judging scandal brewing up again among the casual viewers, because what most people see probably won't match the scores/final outcome, and we're back to people "being robbed" of medals again :slink:
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
If these new rules stick around till 2018, I see another massive judging scandal brewing up again among the casual viewers, because what most people see probably won't match the scores/final outcome, and we're back to people "being robbed" of medals again :slink:

TES box going to help a lot. Most peoples going to see 4.2 points for 3lutz and I don't think casual viewers know how much point a 3lutz actually is.:confused:
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
TES box going to help a lot. Most peoples going to see 4.2 points for 3lutz and I don't think casual viewers know how much point a 3lutz actually is.:confused:
Yeah, but they always call to review the edge, I don't think they don't hand out the downgrade on sight. The casual viewers will just see the TES dropping after the fact. :laugh:
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
That's what I'm wondering.As far as difficult entrance, maybe things like turning 3's into a back camel counts? It's so weird, lol.
AS far as I understand from a TS, the threes into back camel is NOT a difficult entry. They may decide to include that as a difficult entry because there would be nothing that fits that description other than various methods of fly.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
I don't know what they have in mind as "difficult change of position."
Maybe they are including using an illusion (a single one) in the spin as a transition between positions as a difficult change of position...:think: :confused: :eek:hwell:

They've now taken away the ONE thing I can do consistently with back entry. :(
 
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