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Thread: What went wrong with Mao Asada?

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    I completely disagree. Irina was robbed of her 2002 OGM. Kwan had better presentation that night? I'm sorry but her Olympic FS was a piece of nothing. Not to mention weak technical content when compared with Slutskaya or Cohen.

    You say Irina should have gotten 5,3 for her best program. I say that Michelle should have gotten nothing higher than 5,0 for both Sheherezade and Tosca.

    Irina's skating skills were SO far behind Kwan? Are you kidding? Irina's skating skills were of the best, she was MUCH faster than Michelle, had wonderful control over her edges and was brilliant at one-foot and multi-directional skating. Did you see her one-foot footwork skated through the entire ice rink without losing any speed?
    Agree. Disagree one thing though.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Not to mention weak technical content when compared with Slutskaya or Cohen.
    Weak technical content when compared with Slutskaya or Cohen? All 3 landed 6 triples. People talk about Kwan's programs having no choreography after 2001, but Cohen's Carmen program was ridiculously empty, and her footwork sequences deserved a deduction as well

    I don't even like Tosca, but saying it deserved a 5.0 for being empty is funny when presentation is not just about choreography or transitions, it's also about interpretation, skating skills, line, overall impression, etc. Then again, that was the same competition where Cohen received a 6.0 with a fall..

  3. #168
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    There is nothing wrong with Mao!! She won 3 world titles, Olympic silver and countless GP medals enough to build a building. Its sport, and sometime you win and sometime you lost. All have good day and bad day, and unfortunately her worst day come during her olympic short program. Its life and clearly Mao had redeemed herself and moved on. She left a legacy in Japan and figure skating history.

    Since figure skating is a subjective sport, there will always be taking sides and biasing judging.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by pointyourtoe View Post
    Weak technical content when compared with Slutskaya or Cohen? All 3 landed 6 triples. People talk about Kwan's programs having no choreography after 2001, but Cohen's Carmen program was ridiculously empty, and her footwork sequences deserved a deduction as well

    I don't even like Tosca, but saying it deserved a 5.0 for being empty is funny when presentation is not just about choreography or transitions, it's also about interpretation, skating skills, line, overall impression, etc. Then again, that was the same competition where Cohen received a 6.0 with a fall..
    I realise that presentation mark is not only about choreography and transitions but her Tosca did not have ANY choreography and transitions (apart from crossovers, a few mohawks and three turns) and Sheherezade had VERY little and hence I would give such a low mark.

    Using the same argumention as you, technical merit is not only about jumps but also spins, spirals, steps and skating skills. Slutskaya had much better spins than Kwan in terms of speed and difficulty of the positions, better footwork (particularly in the short program) and was much faster. Even if they both had landed the same number of triples in the long, Slutskaya's jumps were still of better quality - higher and fully rotated. But in fact, Michelle fell on one triple so your assertion that they landed the same number of triples is invalid. Moreover, Michelle's triple flip in the SP was half a turn short which should have placed her behind the top three after the short. This event was as unjust as 2014 Olympics were. The only difference is that in 2002 Russian skater was robbed of the gold and the American unjustly won. On the other hand, in 2014 the Russian skater had it much easier to win.

    I love Mao Asada. The inconsistency she had was caused by the bad technique she had been taught and the fact that she had to go back to the drawing board and relearn it. Then her mother died, too. But she managed to regain her jumps and win the third World title and many other titles as well.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    I realise that presentation mark is not only about choreography and transitions but her Tosca did not have ANY choreography and transitions (apart from crossovers, a few mohawks and three turns) and Sheherezade had VERY little and hence I would give such a low mark.
    A low mark is one thing, even very low I could understand, but a 5.0 for a clean 6 triple program (Tosca) shows that you're extremely biased, just like that other poster who claimed Irina never deserved higher than a 5.3 for presentation. Cohen's program was just as empty, and Slutskaya's frantic face grabbing ending was weird. And I find Tosca empty and boring but there were a few clear choreographic sections.

    The irony of Scheherazade's choreography often being bashed is that Cohen changed the end of her lp at the Olympics to look like Kwan's (adding the 2 split jumps) while Kwan actually ended up taking that out to perform the extra triple toe. You can also see multiple instances in Yuna's Scheherazade program that are clearly choreographically influenced by Kwan's version as well..

    Using the same argumention as you, technical merit is not only about jumps but also spins, spirals, steps and skating skills. Slutskaya had much better spins than Kwan in terms of speed and difficulty of the positions, better footwork (particularly in the short program) and was much faster. Even if they both had landed the same number of triples in the long, Slutskaya's jumps were still of better quality - higher and fully rotated. But in fact, Michelle fell on one triple so your assertion that they landed the same number of triples is invalid. Moreover, Michelle's triple flip in the SP was half a turn short which should have placed her behind the top three after the short. This event was as unjust as 2014 Olympics were. The only difference is that in 2002 Russian skater was robbed of the gold and the American unjustly won. On the other hand, in 2014 the Russian skater had it much easier to win.
    Except that I never argued that Kwan should have won over Slutskaya. You're confusing another poster's comments with mine. And actually Kwan did land 6 triples like Slutskaya. She added a triple toe at the end after two-footing a triple toe and falling on the flip. Irina had a step out on a combination, a two-foot landing on another jump, then landed extremely forward (close to falling) on a third jump. Again, I was never the one arguing that Kwan should've beat Slutskaya. I just don't agree with your assertion that Slutskaya and Cohen were miles ahead technically. Btw, Slutskaya was noticeably slower than usual in the lp, so much so that even Bezic mentioned it. And at this pre-COP competition, Slutskaya's only really harder spin was the double Biellman at the end.

    As for the sp, Kwan under-rotated her flip while Cohen didn't complete the pattern in her footwork sequence. In the lp, Kwan landed 2 combination jumps while Cohen fell on one of her combos so she ended up with only 1.

  6. #171
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    I think people just think something "went wrong" because we saw her like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJ_mG6Qvno a year after Torino..

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkun View Post
    I think people just think something "went wrong" because we saw her like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJ_mG6Qvno a year after Torino..
    Yes, Thanks for posting. This performance is one of my all time favorites; I just discovered it about a month ago. How about that "generous" component score of 59 for such a magnificent performance to go with a 73 + tech. I guess that was the only way to keep her below the world record back in 2007. Now if that's not being underscored I don't know what is. Kind of like the deja vu a little over 6 years later that happened in the LP at Sochi, or the 2014 World's LP tech gutting. I may be wrong, but I really think that's one of the main reasons Mao wants a long rest to consider whether to resume a career in competitive skating when she is in such top form.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotoschool View Post
    Yes, Thanks for posting. This performance is one of my all time favorites; I just discovered it about a month ago. How about that "generous" component score of 59 for such a magnificent performance to go with a 73 + tech. I guess that was the only way to keep her below the world record back in 2007. Now if that's not being underscored I don't know what is. Kind of like the deja vu a little over 6 years later that happened in the LP at Sochi, or the World's LP tech gutting. I may be wrong, but I really think that's one of the main reasons she wants to get away from competitive skating.
    Mao has definitely been under-scored numerous times in here career... I've tried many times to think of reasons why she might be underscored and I simply can't think of a reason.

  9. #174
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    I would not call that an example of purposeful underscoring. Judging in 2007-08 was probably the stingiest it has ever been under CoP, not just for Mao. Mao got barely 60 PCS at Worlds that season (and Yuna scored 58.56), and Yuna's two best LPs couldn't crack 61. Carolina, today's so-called PCS queen, was actually getting lower PCS than them. Basically everyone was judged like Lipnitskaya at Skate Canada.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    I would not call that an example of purposeful underscoring. Judging in 2007-08 was probably the stingiest it has ever been under CoP, not just for Mao. Mao got barely 60 PCS at Worlds that season (and Yuna scored 58.56), and Yuna's two best LPs couldn't crack 61. Carolina, today's so-called PCS queen, was actually getting lower PCS than them. Basically everyone was judged like Lipnitskaya at Skate Canada.
    First, I want to say that I think Kim skated really well in the 2007 GPF LP, but I just think Mao's performance was spectacular. But, Yuna Kim still got almost 2 points higher than Mao in PCS in that GPF LP. I can certainly understand the argument that Mao shouldn't have won because she was about 5-6 points behind after the SP. I do think it's debatable because Kim fell and Mao didn't miss a step, but I believe Mao should have at least gotten the world record LP with Kim's PCS or higher. Of course, I'm sure a lot will disagree. Competitions like this make me wish that they had a Gold for overall score and the LP.

    Again, it seems to me that the same pattern of underscoring happened in Sochi and at World's 2010, where it fortunately made no difference. The comments below the video of her 2010 World's LP are really heated with most agreeing that she was underscored. The announcers, including Tara Lipinski, were obviously a lot more impressed than the judges. I disagree with people who say she skated too slowly because the music is heavy, brooding and ominous and the stealthy slowness builds the suspense and tension wonderfully. Here is the video with Lipinski's commentary

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCZCM8AKCU

    Here is a better copy with no commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCwCo3GID2E

    This is an HD copy of her Bells performance at Japanese Nationals where she skated really welll:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4u4VzA2Pc

    One thing that really impresses me that I haven't heard mentioned is how Mao gracefully cups her black-gloved against her chest during the one handed Biellmann at the end.


    Another one of my favorite programs is Mao's 2011 Liebestraum LP at 4CC's. The PCS is between 62 and 63. Again, it seems low to me, especially with her beautiful balletic twirling motions .

    Here is that performance in HD:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_fHcE4uFg4

    I grew up with artistic merit under the 6.0 system under which I believe Mao's elegance and sophistication would be rewarded more generously and her jumps wouldn't have been analyzed so microscopically. To me, slow mo analysis seems a bit excessive, especially when the tech crew can target based on perceived reputation. I think the skaters should at least have access to appeal the decision to the judges. As it is, the slow mo is mainly punitive.

    Mao's incredible flexibility on her spins and spirals with simultaneous serpentine motions and arcs gliding across the ice, her magnificent step sequences, her extensions, her beautiful wave-like flowing motion and innate musicality seem to me to be shortchanged. To me generally, PCS seems to be based mainly on speed and reputation and used as place holders with an emphasis on heavily dramatized gestures and smiles instead of more subtle, natural expression like Mao's. Not that dramatic gestures are bad; I just prefer Mao's style. For most of her career, I just don't see that her artistry was rewarded like it should be under COP. However, I do think she received a reasonable PCS score in her 2014 World's LP.

    Since you brought up Lipnitskaya, she is quite good but whatever she didn't get at Skate Canada was given back with interest in the Olympics, and her score at World's 2014 was in my opinion overly generous: 207 with a fall: Mao's best all-time score without a fall going into Worlds at the NHK in 2013. This just doesn't seem just. Again in my opinion, relative to Lipnitsakaya, Mao was underscored at both the Olympics and Worlds, and Mao's jumps are definitely higher. Mao had no points off in the World's SP with most jumps getting +1 or higher, then -11 points in the LP, even though both were magnificent performances- with the exception of one missed triple after a step out on the double axel in the LP, which she covered up wonderfully. A Tale of Two different Tech Crews I guess.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    I completely disagree. Irina was robbed of her 2002 OGM. Kwan had better presentation that night? I'm sorry but her Olympic FS was a piece of nothing. Not to mention weak technical content when compared with Slutskaya or Cohen.

    You say Irina should have gotten 5,3 for her best program. I say that Michelle should have gotten nothing higher than 5,0 for both Sheherezade and Tosca.

    Irina's skating skills were SO far behind Kwan? Are you kidding? Irina's skating skills were of the best, she was MUCH faster than Michelle, had wonderful control over her edges and was brilliant at one-foot and multi-directional skating. Did you see her one-foot footwork skated through the entire ice rink without losing any speed?
    This post is from an alternate universe. And what does it have to do with Mao?

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by pointyourtoe View Post
    A low mark is one thing, even very low I could understand, but a 5.0 for a clean 6 triple program (Tosca) shows that you're extremely biased, just like that other poster who claimed Irina never deserved higher than a 5.3 for presentation. Cohen's program was just as empty, and Slutskaya's frantic face grabbing ending was weird. And I find Tosca empty and boring but there were a few clear choreographic sections.

    The irony of Scheherazade's choreography often being bashed is that Cohen changed the end of her lp at the Olympics to look like Kwan's (adding the 2 split jumps) while Kwan actually ended up taking that out to perform the extra triple toe. You can also see multiple instances in Yuna's Scheherazade program that are clearly choreographically influenced by Kwan's version as well..



    Except that I never argued that Kwan should have won over Slutskaya. You're confusing another poster's comments with mine. And actually Kwan did land 6 triples like Slutskaya. She added a triple toe at the end after two-footing a triple toe and falling on the flip. Irina had a step out on a combination, a two-foot landing on another jump, then landed extremely forward (close to falling) on a third jump. Again, I was never the one arguing that Kwan should've beat Slutskaya. I just don't agree with your assertion that Slutskaya and Cohen were miles ahead technically. Btw, Slutskaya was noticeably slower than usual in the lp, so much so that even Bezic mentioned it. And at this pre-COP competition, Slutskaya's only really harder spin was the double Biellman at the end.

    As for the sp, Kwan under-rotated her flip while Cohen didn't complete the pattern in her footwork sequence. In the lp, Kwan landed 2 combination jumps while Cohen fell on one of her combos so she ended up with only 1.
    Irina was robbed because of the SP, where she should not have finished second, but first. The FS doesn't matter because with the way her and Kwan skated she would have placed ahead of Kwan there anyways. Since Sarah was coming from 4th she would have needed one other person to beat Slutskaya in the FS. Irina would have won. This was similar to how Lipinski held off Kwan in 1997, IIRC.

    The SP scoring, which was an am bar assent to the sport, is how she got denied the OGM.

    It's history, now.

    Hope Mao is doing well. And getting some much needed rest. Much respect for her actually dedicating herself to the sport full time the way she did.

  13. #178
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    Her physique changed and she has been practicing bad technique which seems to have stuck. The latter being a shame really, because I really like Mao.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Irina was robbed because of the SP, where she should not have finished second, but first.
    Her SP was front-loaded and an empty attempt at trying to be "artistic". Cohen wins that segment for me.

    Her LP was slow and mechanical, without even skating clean. I have her 4th there. Kwan's program had far better choreography and interpretation (the people who rag on her Scheherazade are really missing something) and Cohen's program displayed superior interpretation as well.

    The ranking system of 6.0 is pretty dumb anyway, though. Everyone who was top 7 in the SP skated well and should have possibly had a chance at the Gold. In this respect CoP has it right. Hughes blew the competition away in the LP and deserved the Gold. Her SP was good enough.

  15. #180
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    Irina didn't skate like a champion in the LP at the 2002 Olympics and Sarah did. The judges got it right.

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