What went wrong with Mao Asada? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What went wrong with Mao Asada?

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Her new Lutz Technique is flawed. From a technical standpoint, it's basically set up to Flutz with the distant hope that she will get off the ice before the judges notice. Ashley Wagner uses a similar technique on her Lutz. Nothing about her Lutz entrance is correct.

Her flip take-off edge fishes like Sasha Cohen's.

And while her rotations are tight, beautiful, and correct... She has a delay in her jumps that causes a lot of UR issues, even on doubles at the end of her combinations. She really has to snap into her tight rotations quicker if she wants to eliminate that. There's a reason why Lipnitskaya basically never URs a jump (unless she's falling or stepping out of them, I'm talking jumps that "appear" clean) and Asada does. Lipnitskaya wastes no time getting into her rotations. By the time Mao is getting into the air position you're talking about, Lipnitskaya already has like 2 rotations done. This is what enables her to do triples with like a third of the height of an Irina Slutskaya or Yuna Kim jump.

Like I mentioned earlier, if her fundamental technique on the lutz was flawed then she would even do her doubles with a wrong edge, and the fact that she doesn't and doesn't receive an "e" on her doubles show that this issue is more due habit then the technique.

Lipitskaya has plenty of technical issues to deal with, so please spare me your preaching about her "supposed flawless" jumps, can't believe anyone would even compare Julias tiny jumps that barely get in the air to Mao's. A childs jumps to a grown woman. If Julias jumps are soo fast and technique soo good, she should easily be able to do an 3A or quad soon, looking forward to seeing that. Let's continue this discussion once she has :laugh:
Julia should count herself lucky if she in a few years still has half her jumps, and by the time she begins to grow she will need every bit of her fast rotation to survive.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Like I mentioned earlier, if her fundamental technique on the lutz was flawed then she would even do her doubles with a wrong edge, and the fact that she doesn't and doesn't receive an "e" on her doubles show that this issue is more due habit then the technique.
I think that she doesn't receive the "e" for her 2Lz not because her edge is significantly better when she performs it, but because most of the times the technical panel doesn't actually bother to analyse closely the edge of a double jump, since it wouldn't make a real difference in scores (with some rare exceptions, clean double jumps performed by senior skaters usually receive 0 GOE, so it would mean 0.2/0.3 difference) :slink:
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I think that she doesn't receive the "e" for her 2Lz not because her edge is significantly better when she performs it, but because most of the times the technical panel doesn't actually bother to analyse closely the edge of a double jump, since it wouldn't make a real difference in scores (with some rare exceptions, clean double jumps performed by senior skaters usually receive 0 GOE, so it would mean 0.2/0.3 difference) :slink:

If that is the case (I really doubt it) then the panels is quite inconsistent.
 

jimeonji

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Like I mentioned earlier, if her fundamental technique on the lutz was flawed then she would even do her doubles with a wrong edge, and the fact that she doesn't and doesn't receive an "e" on her doubles show that this issue is more due habit then the technique.

I am by no means an expert on jump technique, but from what I've read and what skaters have actually told me, flutzes come from a tendency to prerotate the lutz while still on the ice. The lutz is special because the outside edge means that the body has to twist in the other direction, unlike the flip, which is set up with turns in the same direction as the rotation. This is where the flutz comes in - because the lutz requires a change in the turn of the body, skaters will often switch to the inside edge with a curve ish motion of the foot in the direction of the rotation. (I'm sure you know what a flutz looks like - getting on the inside edge helps them out with getting into the rotation position.)

Considering this, because the 3Lz calls for one more rotation than 2Lz, a skater would have a greater tendency to flutz and get into the rotation position. Of course, the lutz technique is still flawed - it is perfectly possible to jump a true lutz. I have not seen Mao do a 2Lz before (if you could link me a video then maybe I could be sure of what I'm saying here) but I would think she still has some edge problems, though not to the extent of the 3Lz edge problems.

if I'm wrong please correct me - take my thoughts as what they are: just my thoughts :laugh:
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
I think I had the exact discussion with you some time ago, but who cares, I will just repeat myself again, even with the toe-hammering her flip was Huge and consistent and shortly after it became inconsistent she changed her technique, so problem solved shortly after it appeared. I also think it's misleading to call 3S unreliable when she rarely included the jump in her layouts, out of all the jumps why fill your layouts with the easier ones when she knew she could include the more difficult ones, and that's exactly what she did. it's called making a wise choice. Also she can't be equally consistent on all jumps all the time, some jumps will always be more consistent then others and that's the case for all skaters.
I also disagree with your bolded part inconsistencies can happen due to nerves, pressure, the skaters body changes, technique is not always the answer. I know many like to think so, because it's the easiest explanation, but figure skating is just much more complicated then that, just look at Mao at the Olympics she landed a dosin 3A in practice right after each other and then look at what happened in the sp's just hours after, are you going to say her technique suddenly deteriorated and then miraculously came back the next day.

I respect your opinion (even through it greatly differs from mine ) in not liking her precious technique on the flip, and in fact clearly hated it since you call it "terrible", but that's your view, according the protocols it was consistent jump during most of her career that earned her good goe. I challenge you to find any commentator or expert who would call it terrible or even bad, because I personally don't remember the commentators complaining about it in fact they usually had nothing but praise, the judges clearly didn't think there was anything wrong with it either since she got positive goe, nor did the Techpanel. But like I said i respect if the previous flip technique wasn't to your liking.

The problem with you is that you can't accept Mao having any flaws. Every skater has some shortcomings and in the case of Mao it was bad technique on her flip. You simply need to learn to live with that. The fact that she may have executed them cleanly, with good flow and positive GOE does not mean that she had good technique on the jump. She had bad technique, full stop. She did land them well until her body changed at which point she started to find them troublesome. Hence she felt the need to go back to the drawing board and relearn this jump. Why would she have wanted to change her flip technique if everything had been ok with the old one? Apparently it wasn't. Mao didn't spend so much time on reworking her jumps without a reason - she had to do it to save those jumps. The same thing happened to Caroline Zhang - when her body changed bad technique inhibited her ability to land the jumps cleanly. The same thing will most likely happen to Yulia Lipnitskaya when she grows.

Also, the fact that you like her old flip technique does not mean that it is a good technique. I'm sorry but your preferences with respect to the jumping technique does not determine whether it's good or not.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Lipnitskaya had the highest scoring element at 2014 WC with her "childlike" 3ltz-3t (11.50pts!!) That said I don't think I'd go to either of them for jumping advice. Both have techniques that are suited to their particular abilities and strengths. While I adore Mao, her 3a is maybe my least favorite part about her skating. She starts telegraphing that thing before the first note of the program when she takes the ice and prepares to begin. It may be her her biggest downfall and oddly enough her saving grace. Now I'm even more confused :slink:

Mao just set a SP record. Why are people saying there is anything wrong with her? She ,just like everyone else, has flaws but still seems to be very relevant if she keeps skating. :popcorn:

I'd prefer a thread titled "what went right with Mao's footwork" :)
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
The problem with you is that you can't accept Mao having any flaws. Every skater has some shortcomings and in the case of Mao it was bad technique on her flip. You simply need to learn to live with that. The fact that she may have executed them cleanly, with good flow and positive GOE does not mean that she had good technique on the jump. She had bad technique, full stop. She did land them well until her body changed at which point she started to find them troublesome. Hence she felt the need to go back to the drawing board and relearn this jump. Why would she have wanted to change her flip technique if everything had been ok with the old one? Apparently it wasn't. Mao didn't spend so much time on reworking her jumps without a reason - she had to do it to save those jumps. The same thing happened to Caroline Zhang - when her body changed bad technique inhibited her ability to land the jumps cleanly. The same thing will most likely happen to Yulia Lipnitskaya when she grows.

Also, the fact that you like her old flip technique does not mean that it is a good technique. I'm sorry but your preferences with respect to the jumping technique does not determine whether it's good or not.

Listen I don't want this to become personal like last time, if you want to discuss I am more then willing but only if there is no personal attack. I think I quite simply have a different understanding of what a good technique is from yours, for me a jump that's usually cleanly executed and that get's positive goe, that has good height, good airposition, fast rotation can never be with bad technique. I also don't believe there is only one way to do a jump all skaters have to follow, and thankfully that's not the case in the sport. Her previous technique on the flip may not be the most ideal for every skater, but it worked fine for Mao during most of her career. In the end if the purpose of the technique is to gain consistency and do the element cleanly and well executed, then Mao did just that with the flip technique she had. what's there to complain about? in the end her flip was more reliable then most skaters who may have the so called "textbook" technique you prefer. I know that it at some point it became inconsistent and she therefor shortly after changed it.

you need to start accepting that I have a different opinion and view on the matter, and just leave it be. My view did not form itself in one day or even one year, and giving me the same information I'm already aware of concerning Mao will not make me change it.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Mao having flaws it's ok, normal I would say. Mao, "what went wrong?" is ridiculous, IMO.
 

gotoschool

Medalist
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
I have to admit that I thought I had entered the wrong date on a search engine when I read the title of this thread- perhaps I had mistakenly entered 2011 or maybe 2012 after the NHK trophy when Mao had just a few clean triples, or NHK trophy 2010 with 2 falls and popped singles. But, when I realized it was April 2014, I wondered if the title should have been "What went right with Mao Asada's jumps?, or "Mao Asada has really improved her jumps." especially after she just had the most successful year of her or most anyone else's career: Grand Prix Final and World Champion, and she couldn't have gotten a Gold Medal in Sochi even if she had had a great SP program with the set up that was in position there. Basically, she grabbed all the major Gold that was available. In terms of her jumps, a little anecdotal evidence. My best friend said he liked Mao's program at Sochi the best specifically because of her beautiful jumps compared to all the others. Now, he didn't look at the protocol or carefully observe the rotation. It was just an immediate gut reaction to the power and beauty of the performance before him, and he had never seen her before.

In terms of tech scores at Worlds in the SP, her triple axel, triple flip, triple loop and double loop all received more than +1 GOE overall with the axel and triple loop and double loop receiving more than +1.5. These are very good GOE's. Yet in the spirit of controversy, skating at a similar level overall though admittedly the axel wasn't quite as good in Sochi, the tech panel in Sochi didn't even give her +1 GOE on any jump for what is regarded as her best ever LP performance and the most valuable combo triple flip triple loop was URed, though it looked clean; and at worlds they marked her off 11 points from 76 to 65, with at least the triple axel and the first triple flip triple loop looking clean and rotated to me and many others: Eurosport for one. Because of these highly questionable calls, she lost almost 7 points and she still won by almost 10. I think she should be complimented for having so much hacked away and still prevailing in her third World Championship, instead of being criticized.
 

FS.Addict

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
I have to admit that I thought I had entered the wrong date on a search engine when I read the title of this post- perhaps i mistakenly entered 2011 or maybe 2012 after the NHK trophy when Mao had just a few clean triples, or NHK trophy 2010 with 2 falls and popped singles. But, when I realized it was April 2014, I wondered if the title should have been "What went right with Mao Asada's jumps?, or "Mao Asada has really improved her jumps." especially after she just had the most successful year of her or most anyone else's career: Grand Prix Final and World Champion, and she couldn't have gotten a Gold Medal in Sochi even if she had had a great SP program with the set up that was in position there. Basically, she grabbed all the major Gold that was available. In terms of her jumps, a little anecdotal evidence. My best friend said he liked Mao's program at Sochi the best specifically because of her beautiful jumps compared to all the others. Now, he didn't look at the protocol or carefully observe the rotation. It was just an immediate gut reaction to the power and beauty of the performance before him, and he had never seen her before.

In terms of tech scores at Worlds in the SP, her triple axel, triple flip, triple loop and double loop all received more than +1 GOE overall with the axel and triple loop and double loop receiving more than +1.5. These are very good GOE's. Yet in the spirit of controversy, skating at a similar level overall though admittedly the axel wasn't quite as good in Sochi, the tech panel in Sochi didn't even give her +1 GOE on any jump for what is regarded as her best ever performance; and at worlds they marked her off 11 points from 76 to 65, with at least the triple axel and the first triple flip triple loop looking clean and rotated to me and many others: Eurosport for one. It seemed that because of these highly questionable calls, she lost almost 7 points and she still won by almost 10. I think she should be complimented for having so much hacked away and still prevailing, instead of being criticized. Maybe, the topic isn't intended to look at the current year or the last two years, so if that's the case I can understand a little more. But, I just feel Mao deserves some more credit for just setting a world record SP and winning her third World Championship, something only 10 other women in the sport have done.

Thank you !!
She has so many qualities as a skater (especially her beautiful step sequences and her lovely presentation) why focus on only the jumps.
She was so underscored in Sochi it makes me sad. I felt like her beautiful free program was so underscored, in both technical and component marks (i agree some of her jumps were UR, but her 3-3 was clearly rotated). I really loved the way she made her program look so dramatic but so light at the same time. And i don't hate Sotnikova for that, it just makes me sad she didn't get what we know she deserved.
I also was amazed by her short program at worlds. It was a piece of heaven !
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
I have to admit that I thought I had entered the wrong date on a search engine when I read the title of this thread- perhaps I had mistakenly entered 2011 or maybe 2012 after the NHK trophy when Mao had just a few clean triples, or NHK trophy 2010 with 2 falls and popped singles. But, when I realized it was April 2014, I wondered if the title should have been "What went right with Mao Asada's jumps?, or "Mao Asada has really improved her jumps." especially after she just had the most successful year of her or most anyone else's career: Grand Prix Final and World Champion, and she couldn't have gotten a Gold Medal in Sochi even if she had had a great SP program with the set up that was in position there. Basically, she grabbed all the major Gold that was available. In terms of her jumps, a little anecdotal evidence. My best friend said he liked Mao's program at Sochi the best specifically because of her beautiful jumps compared to all the others. Now, he didn't look at the protocol or carefully observe the rotation. It was just an immediate gut reaction to the power and beauty of the performance before him, and he had never seen her before.

In terms of tech scores at Worlds in the SP, her triple axel, triple flip, triple loop and double loop all received more than +1 GOE overall with the axel and triple loop and double loop receiving more than +1.5. These are very good GOE's. Yet in the spirit of controversy, skating at a similar level overall though admittedly the axel wasn't quite as good in Sochi, the tech panel in Sochi didn't even give her +1 GOE on any jump for what is regarded as her best ever LP performance and the most valuable combo triple flip triple loop was URed, though it looked clean; and at worlds they marked her off 11 points from 76 to 65, with at least the triple axel and the first triple flip triple loop looking clean and rotated to me and many others: Eurosport for one. Because of these highly questionable calls, she lost almost 7 points and she still won by almost 10. I think she should be complimented for having so much hacked away and still prevailing in her third World Championship, instead of being criticized.
This^

Nobody is perfect, including Mao Asada. But looking at her achievements this last year or two, adds a healthy dose of real-world perspective.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I just don't get what's wrong with Mao Asada? If she competes next year will she not be the one to beat? In any competition. What's wrong with everyone else seems just as relevant of a discussion to me:laugh:
 

Components

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
Like I mentioned earlier, if her fundamental technique on the lutz was flawed then she would even do her doubles with a wrong edge, and the fact that she doesn't and doesn't receive an "e" on her doubles show that this issue is more due habit then the technique.

Lipitskaya has plenty of technical issues to deal with, so please spare me your preaching about her "supposed flawless" jumps, can't believe anyone would even compare Julias tiny jumps that barely get in the air to Mao's. A childs jumps to a grown woman. If Julias jumps are soo fast and technique soo good, she should easily be able to do an 3A or quad soon, looking forward to seeing that. Let's continue this discussion once she has :laugh:
Julia should count herself lucky if she in a few years still has half her jumps, and by the time she begins to grow she will need every bit of her fast rotation to survive.

It's a lot easier to do a 2Lz and avoid an edge call. Most elite skaters can do doubles in their sleep. That doesn't really say anything.

I didn't say Julia's technique was great. I simply used her as a counter example to illustrate the issue Mao has IRT URs due to her delayed rotation in her jump.

I think you need a serious chill pill, and you seriously need to actually read what you're responding to before having a verbal BM in the thread...
 

anyanka

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Nothing went "wrong". Some coaching changes were necessitated as a result of her mother's illness. She re-worked techniques because she realized she may not be getting full marks. She lost her mother and still carried on, winning yet more titles and medals. Despite the nightmare of the Sochi SP with her losing face and failing to deliver Olympic gold she went out in the FS and had the performance of her career, then won a third world title on home ice. She headlines her own show and has arguably eclipsed national hero Midori Ito to become her country's single most iconic skater. She is a total boss and a magnificent champion.

The title of this thread should be: "What did Mao Asada do RIGHT when everything else seemed to go wrong for her?" and list / celebrate her accomplishments.
 

desertskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Nothing went "wrong". Some coaching changes were necessitated as a result of her mother's illness. She re-worked techniques because she realized she may not be getting full marks. She lost her mother and still carried on, winning yet more titles and medals. Despite the nightmare of the Sochi SP with her losing face and failing to deliver Olympic gold she went out in the FS and had the performance of her career, then won a third national title on home ice. She headlines her own show and has arguably eclipsed national hero Midori Ito to become her country's single most iconic skater. She is a total boss and a magnificent champion.

The title of this thread should be: "What did Mao Asada do RIGHT when everything else seemed to go wrong for her?" and list / celebrate her accomplishments.

:agree:
 
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