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Thread: What went wrong with Mao Asada?

  1. #16
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    even with the toe-hammering her flip was Huge and consistent and shortly after it became inconsistent she changed her technique, so problem solved shortly after it appeared.
    A "huge and consistent" jump does not necessarily have good technique: the toe-hammering, leaning forward and unstable edge (as Bartek said) are all technique mistakes that she actually worked on with Sato (her flip is really better now), so I have to agree with CarneAsada and Bartek, her flip technique during her early years was not a good one, even if she was able to land it nicely. A "well-landed big jump" does not always imply a "technically well-executed jump" (just think about Sotnikova's lutz for example)
    But I don't think that her technique now is "as much flawed" as the previous one: her jumps now are much better than in the late 2008-early 2011 period!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    I will just repeat myself again, even with the toe-hammering her flip was Huge and consistent and shortly after it became inconsistent she changed her technique, so problem solved shortly after it appeared. I also think it's misleading to call 3S unreliable when she rarely included the jump in her layouts, out of all the jumps why fill your layouts with the easier ones when she knew she could include the more difficult ones, and that's exactly what she did. it's called making a wise choice. Also she can't be equally consistent on all jumps all the time, some jumps will always be more consistent then others and that's the case for all skaters.
    I also disagree with your bolded part inconsistencies can happen due to nerves, pressure, the skaters body changes, technique is not always the answer.
    Would you like me to list the times she attempted the 3S in the Vancouver quad?

    Japan Open 2008: doubled
    TEB 2008: popped, fall
    NHK 2008: landed without issue
    GPF 2008: landed without issue
    Japanese Nationals 2008: popped
    Japan Open 2009: popped

    I've heard various reasons for why she didn't include it ranging from it being her least favorite triple to not being worth enough points. Anyway, I never mentioned her 3Sal having bad technique. It was just not a favorite jump of Mao's, and it was inconsistent. As for her old flip, I wouldn't necessarily call it terrible technique, but it is unorthodox. The fact is she started having trouble on it in 2009 and she felt the need to fix it after Vancouver.

    but that's your view, according the protocols it was consistent jump during most of her career that earned her good goe. I challenge you to find any commentator or expert who would call it terrible or even bad, because I personally don't remember the commentators complaining about it in fact they usually had nothing but praise, the judges clearly didn't think there was anything wrong with it either since she got positive goe, nor did the Techpanel. But like I said i respect if the previous flip technique wasn't to your liking.
    Her GOEs in the 2009-10 season were very stingy; GOE was less generous overall in that quad, but she was often losing a full point to her main competitors in GOE on the flip alone. Commentators rarely call anything terrible or bad, they just care if it avoids an outright deduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    But I don't think that her technique now is "as much flawed" as the previous one: her jumps now are much better than in the late 2008-early 2011 period!
    Agreed. Her flutz was most likely a lost cause, but she still landed it every time she attempted it this season (compare to doubling 4/6 attempts in 2008-09). Aside from that, most of the other jumps are much improved.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    A "huge and consistent" jump does not necessarily have good technique: the toe-hammering, leaning forward and unstable edge (as Bartek said) are all technique mistakes that she actually worked on with Sato (her flip is really better now), so I have to agree with CarneAsada and Bartek, her flip technique during her early years was not a good one, even if she was able to land it nicely. A "well-landed big jump" does not always imply a "technically well-executed jump" (just think about Sotnikova's lutz for example)
    But I don't think that her technique now is "as much flawed" as the previous one: her jumps now are much better than in the late 2008-early 2011 period!
    In the end I think it all comes down to how much the hammer toe bothers each person, it personally didn't bother me at all, and it made her previous flip and style easily distinguishable, from the rest. I personally don't think there is only one way to do a jump right, I have watched many skaters do the same jumps with different techniques, and I enjoyed these skaters jumps equally because they were still beautifully done. Even if the current flip technique is better then the previous, I can honestly say that i enjoyed watching the previous flip atleast just as much as the current one.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Would you like me to list the times she attempted the 3S in the Vancouver quad?

    Japan Open 2008: doubled
    TEB 2008: popped, fall
    NHK 2008: landed without issue
    GPF 2008: landed without issue
    Japanese Nationals 2008: popped
    Japan Open 2009: popped

    I've heard various reasons for why she didn't include it ranging from it being her least favorite triple to not being worth enough points. Anyway, I never mentioned her 3Sal having bad technique. It was just not a favorite jump of Mao's, and it was inconsistent. As for her old flip, I wouldn't necessarily call it terrible technique, but it is unorthodox. The fact is she started having trouble on it in 2009 and she felt the need to fix it after Vancouver.


    Her GOEs in the 2009-10 season were very stingy; GOE was less generous overall in that quad, but she was often losing a full point to her main competitors in GOE on the flip alone. Commentators rarely call anything terrible or bad, they just care if it avoids an outright deduction.


    Agreed. Her flutz was most likely a lost cause, but she still landed it every time she attempted it this season (compare to doubling 4/6 attempts in 2008-09). Aside from that, most of the other jumps are much improved.
    This list just shows how seldom she included the salcow, from that it's hard to draw any definite conclusion. fact is when when she decided to include it, she only did it once in her lp, which likely meant she also didn't practice the jump as much as the other jumps she did repeat and the jumps that were generally more difficult and therefor more time consuming. I agree that the judges were very stingy compared to now, but she still got positive goe for her flip, which shows that even at the time when they were very stingy with goe they still thought of it as an overall good executed jump. as did the commentators.

    Even if the commentators never said a jump is literally bad, they usually mentioned if it had an obvious flaw or distraction, can't count the number of times they did that to skater with legwraps, and bad air positions etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    I strongly disagree with the bolded part, I can't count the number of times I have rewatched Mao's performances from the past, and I never noticed any of the issues you mentioned, like a "strange" flip or "unreliable" salcow. Her flip in particular was HUGE, and if anything her jumps usually were beautifully executed without any hesitation, with good height, and ice coverage and with good air position, and fast rotation, I know I have said this before but these qualities will always be something I connect with Mao's jumps, since I am very accustomed seeing these qualities from her. The commentators also never complain about the quality of her jumps or technique for good reason, in fact they usually had nothing but praise, only exception was the edge change on the lutz.

    I also think it's plain wrong to call her new technique on the lutz flawed, since her new technique is probably not the problem but rather it's old habits on the lutz. if the technique on the lutz was wrong then even her 2lz would also have received an edge call, but she doesn't receive the "e" when doubling that jump, which makes me think that the edge issue with the 3lz is mainly due to habit.
    Her new Lutz Technique is flawed. From a technical standpoint, it's basically set up to Flutz with the distant hope that she will get off the ice before the judges notice. Ashley Wagner uses a similar technique on her Lutz. Nothing about her Lutz entrance is correct.

    Her flip take-off edge fishes like Sasha Cohen's.

    And while her rotations are tight, beautiful, and correct... She has a delay in her jumps that causes a lot of UR issues, even on doubles at the end of her combinations. She really has to snap into her tight rotations quicker if she wants to eliminate that. There's a reason why Lipnitskaya basically never URs a jump (unless she's falling or stepping out of them, I'm talking jumps that "appear" clean) and Asada does. Lipnitskaya wastes no time getting into her rotations. By the time Mao is getting into the air position you're talking about, Lipnitskaya already has like 2 rotations done. This is what enables her to do triples with like a third of the height of an Irina Slutskaya or Yuna Kim jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Her new Lutz Technique is flawed. From a technical standpoint, it's basically set up to Flutz with the distant hope that she will get off the ice before the judges notice. Ashley Wagner uses a similar technique on her Lutz. Nothing about her Lutz entrance is correct.

    Her flip take-off edge fishes like Sasha Cohen's.

    And while her rotations are tight, beautiful, and correct... She has a delay in her jumps that causes a lot of UR issues, even on doubles at the end of her combinations. She really has to snap into her tight rotations quicker if she wants to eliminate that. There's a reason why Lipnitskaya basically never URs a jump (unless she's falling or stepping out of them, I'm talking jumps that "appear" clean) and Asada does. Lipnitskaya wastes no time getting into her rotations. By the time Mao is getting into the air position you're talking about, Lipnitskaya already has like 2 rotations done. This is what enables her to do triples with like a third of the height of an Irina Slutskaya or Yuna Kim jump.
    Like I mentioned earlier, if her fundamental technique on the lutz was flawed then she would even do her doubles with a wrong edge, and the fact that she doesn't and doesn't receive an "e" on her doubles show that this issue is more due habit then the technique.

    Lipitskaya has plenty of technical issues to deal with, so please spare me your preaching about her "supposed flawless" jumps, can't believe anyone would even compare Julias tiny jumps that barely get in the air to Mao's. A childs jumps to a grown woman. If Julias jumps are soo fast and technique soo good, she should easily be able to do an 3A or quad soon, looking forward to seeing that. Let's continue this discussion once she has
    Julia should count herself lucky if she in a few years still has half her jumps, and by the time she begins to grow she will need every bit of her fast rotation to survive.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    Like I mentioned earlier, if her fundamental technique on the lutz was flawed then she would even do her doubles with a wrong edge, and the fact that she doesn't and doesn't receive an "e" on her doubles show that this issue is more due habit then the technique.
    I think that she doesn't receive the "e" for her 2Lz not because her edge is significantly better when she performs it, but because most of the times the technical panel doesn't actually bother to analyse closely the edge of a double jump, since it wouldn't make a real difference in scores (with some rare exceptions, clean double jumps performed by senior skaters usually receive 0 GOE, so it would mean 0.2/0.3 difference)

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I think that she doesn't receive the "e" for her 2Lz not because her edge is significantly better when she performs it, but because most of the times the technical panel doesn't actually bother to analyse closely the edge of a double jump, since it wouldn't make a real difference in scores (with some rare exceptions, clean double jumps performed by senior skaters usually receive 0 GOE, so it would mean 0.2/0.3 difference)
    If that is the case (I really doubt it) then the panels is quite inconsistent.

  10. #25
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    What went wrong with Mao Asada?
    I must've missed a lot because I can see nothing wrong with Asada.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    Like I mentioned earlier, if her fundamental technique on the lutz was flawed then she would even do her doubles with a wrong edge, and the fact that she doesn't and doesn't receive an "e" on her doubles show that this issue is more due habit then the technique.
    I am by no means an expert on jump technique, but from what I've read and what skaters have actually told me, flutzes come from a tendency to prerotate the lutz while still on the ice. The lutz is special because the outside edge means that the body has to twist in the other direction, unlike the flip, which is set up with turns in the same direction as the rotation. This is where the flutz comes in - because the lutz requires a change in the turn of the body, skaters will often switch to the inside edge with a curve ish motion of the foot in the direction of the rotation. (I'm sure you know what a flutz looks like - getting on the inside edge helps them out with getting into the rotation position.)

    Considering this, because the 3Lz calls for one more rotation than 2Lz, a skater would have a greater tendency to flutz and get into the rotation position. Of course, the lutz technique is still flawed - it is perfectly possible to jump a true lutz. I have not seen Mao do a 2Lz before (if you could link me a video then maybe I could be sure of what I'm saying here) but I would think she still has some edge problems, though not to the extent of the 3Lz edge problems.

    if I'm wrong please correct me - take my thoughts as what they are: just my thoughts

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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    I think I had the exact discussion with you some time ago, but who cares, I will just repeat myself again, even with the toe-hammering her flip was Huge and consistent and shortly after it became inconsistent she changed her technique, so problem solved shortly after it appeared. I also think it's misleading to call 3S unreliable when she rarely included the jump in her layouts, out of all the jumps why fill your layouts with the easier ones when she knew she could include the more difficult ones, and that's exactly what she did. it's called making a wise choice. Also she can't be equally consistent on all jumps all the time, some jumps will always be more consistent then others and that's the case for all skaters.
    I also disagree with your bolded part inconsistencies can happen due to nerves, pressure, the skaters body changes, technique is not always the answer. I know many like to think so, because it's the easiest explanation, but figure skating is just much more complicated then that, just look at Mao at the Olympics she landed a dosin 3A in practice right after each other and then look at what happened in the sp's just hours after, are you going to say her technique suddenly deteriorated and then miraculously came back the next day.

    I respect your opinion (even through it greatly differs from mine ) in not liking her precious technique on the flip, and in fact clearly hated it since you call it "terrible", but that's your view, according the protocols it was consistent jump during most of her career that earned her good goe. I challenge you to find any commentator or expert who would call it terrible or even bad, because I personally don't remember the commentators complaining about it in fact they usually had nothing but praise, the judges clearly didn't think there was anything wrong with it either since she got positive goe, nor did the Techpanel. But like I said i respect if the previous flip technique wasn't to your liking.
    The problem with you is that you can't accept Mao having any flaws. Every skater has some shortcomings and in the case of Mao it was bad technique on her flip. You simply need to learn to live with that. The fact that she may have executed them cleanly, with good flow and positive GOE does not mean that she had good technique on the jump. She had bad technique, full stop. She did land them well until her body changed at which point she started to find them troublesome. Hence she felt the need to go back to the drawing board and relearn this jump. Why would she have wanted to change her flip technique if everything had been ok with the old one? Apparently it wasn't. Mao didn't spend so much time on reworking her jumps without a reason - she had to do it to save those jumps. The same thing happened to Caroline Zhang - when her body changed bad technique inhibited her ability to land the jumps cleanly. The same thing will most likely happen to Yulia Lipnitskaya when she grows.

    Also, the fact that you like her old flip technique does not mean that it is a good technique. I'm sorry but your preferences with respect to the jumping technique does not determine whether it's good or not.

  13. #28
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    Lipnitskaya had the highest scoring element at 2014 WC with her "childlike" 3ltz-3t (11.50pts!!) That said I don't think I'd go to either of them for jumping advice. Both have techniques that are suited to their particular abilities and strengths. While I adore Mao, her 3a is maybe my least favorite part about her skating. She starts telegraphing that thing before the first note of the program when she takes the ice and prepares to begin. It may be her her biggest downfall and oddly enough her saving grace. Now I'm even more confused

    Mao just set a SP record. Why are people saying there is anything wrong with her? She ,just like everyone else, has flaws but still seems to be very relevant if she keeps skating.

    I'd prefer a thread titled "what went right with Mao's footwork"

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    The problem with you is that you can't accept Mao having any flaws. Every skater has some shortcomings and in the case of Mao it was bad technique on her flip. You simply need to learn to live with that. The fact that she may have executed them cleanly, with good flow and positive GOE does not mean that she had good technique on the jump. She had bad technique, full stop. She did land them well until her body changed at which point she started to find them troublesome. Hence she felt the need to go back to the drawing board and relearn this jump. Why would she have wanted to change her flip technique if everything had been ok with the old one? Apparently it wasn't. Mao didn't spend so much time on reworking her jumps without a reason - she had to do it to save those jumps. The same thing happened to Caroline Zhang - when her body changed bad technique inhibited her ability to land the jumps cleanly. The same thing will most likely happen to Yulia Lipnitskaya when she grows.

    Also, the fact that you like her old flip technique does not mean that it is a good technique. I'm sorry but your preferences with respect to the jumping technique does not determine whether it's good or not.
    Listen I don't want this to become personal like last time, if you want to discuss I am more then willing but only if there is no personal attack. I think I quite simply have a different understanding of what a good technique is from yours, for me a jump that's usually cleanly executed and that get's positive goe, that has good height, good airposition, fast rotation can never be with bad technique. I also don't believe there is only one way to do a jump all skaters have to follow, and thankfully that's not the case in the sport. Her previous technique on the flip may not be the most ideal for every skater, but it worked fine for Mao during most of her career. In the end if the purpose of the technique is to gain consistency and do the element cleanly and well executed, then Mao did just that with the flip technique she had. what's there to complain about? in the end her flip was more reliable then most skaters who may have the so called "textbook" technique you prefer. I know that it at some point it became inconsistent and she therefor shortly after changed it.

    you need to start accepting that I have a different opinion and view on the matter, and just leave it be. My view did not form itself in one day or even one year, and giving me the same information I'm already aware of concerning Mao will not make me change it.

  15. #30
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    Mao having flaws it's ok, normal I would say. Mao, "what went wrong?" is ridiculous, IMO.

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