What went wrong with Mao Asada?

umeko_yur1tasukee · May 17, 2014

Hello!

What went wrong,
why Mao is not the OGM (medalist)?

I actually asked the same thing as the title of this thread xD

nguyenghita · May 17, 2014

umeko_yur1tasukee said:
Hello!

What went wrong,
why Mao is not the OGM (medalist)?

Because Yuna does exist, maybe :think:

minze · May 17, 2014

gotoschool said:
Presently, Mao's jumps to me appear to be as good or better than they have ever been. Earlier, I heard that Mao had issues with increased height and weight coupled with her delayed rotation in the air. I agree with your that the main inconsistency came when she started reworking her jumps because even with the difficulties she still won Worlds convincingly in 2010. I also read on a thread at fs universe that ballerina style skaters with super flexibility like Mao Asada and Sasha Cohen face more difficulty in jumps due to their more delicate hip structure. I don't know if this is true, but if it is Mao has been successful in overcoming it, and even winning when she had to confront it.

I agree with you on most points, but I simply don't see why Yulia is considered to be more consistent than Mao. Mao beat her comfortably at the Grand Prix Final and Worlds, even with many highly suspect tech calls. Probably, the first time I've heard of that a +1.6 from the judges on a triple axel was downgraded to a 0 GOE on a double axel because of a suspect ur call from the tech crew: a loss of more 4 points. This doesn't take into consideration the suspect downgrade on the triple flip / triple loop which docked her another 3 points. Granted, Yulia did beat Mao in the team event at the Olympics, but in the individual event, Mao would have beaten her, if there had been any semblance of fairness in judging.

Mao has consistency and staying power because she is the first and only Asian woman to win 3 world championships and she is tied with Slutskaya with 4 Grand Prix Final championships. Furthermore in the last 80 years, only one woman has had a greater time span between their first and last world championship victory: Michelle Kwan at 7 years, with Mao at 6 years.

Two other recent world champions, Shizuka Arakawa and Miki Ando were more inconsistent than Mao, and Kostner has only won 1 world championship and has been competing much longer than Mao. Kim has won 2 out of the 6 world championships she has entered and Mao has won 3 out of 8. There is also a 4 year difference between Miki Ando's (2007 and 2011) , Yuna Kim's (2009 and 2013) and Mao Asada's (2010 and 2014) last 2 world championship victories. Mao seems to fit the other top world champions in terms of consistency of world championship victories.

Again in my opinion, the anachronistic and provocative wording of the thread, in light of Mao's recent achievements and unjust scoring at least in her LP's, is what has caused Mao supporters to rightfully defend her.

Agree.

minze · May 17, 2014

umeko_yur1tasukee said:
Hello!

What went wrong,
why Mao is not the OGM (medalist)?

I actually asked the same thing as the title of this thread xD

Nothing went wrong with Mao. You do realize some of the best skaters in the world dont have an OGM. Hello: Michelle Kwan.

Sandpiper · May 17, 2014

^But Michelle is also a five-time world champion (basically unheard of in recent history), two-time Olympic medalist (imo, arguably more impressive than just winning a single gold and disappearing). She's never been off the podium between 1996 and 2004. Let's put it this way: add Torino gold to Michelle's repertoire, and there'll be no debate she was the greatest skater of her era. Add Sochi gold to Mao's repertoire, and people will still debate whether she was greater than Yuna Kim. All this can change if Mao continues, of course, and wins more Worlds (and another Olympic medal).

I agree it's asinine to say something is "wrong" with Mao Asada just because she didn't win Olympic gold. That's only one prize of many, and it doesn't take Olympic gold to make one a great champion. But I understand why some people would find Mao's consistency and achievements somewhat underwhelming in face of the overwhelming talent she displayed at fifteen. She has achieved a lot, and has much to be proud of. But she is so talented that some people still think she could've/should've achieved more. That's a compliment more than anything.

A bit off-topic, but I'm starting to see some parallels between Michelle and Mao's careers: cheated out of first Olympics due to circumstances beyond their control, comes in second at actual first Olympics despite skating relatively well (because someone else was on fire that day and skated even better), disappointment at second Olympics... Now we'll have to see where Mao goes from here, but I have a feeling she'll continue but not make it to Pyeongchang just like Michelle never made it to Torino. :no: I hope I'm wrong though.

pangtongfan · May 17, 2014

Sandpiper said:
^But Michelle is also a five-time world champion (basically unheard of in recent history), two-time Olympic medalist (imo, arguably more impressive than just winning a single gold and disappearing). She's never been off the podium between 1996 and 2004. Let's put it this way: add Torino gold to Michelle's repertoire, and there'll be no debate she was the greatest skater of her era. Add Sochi gold to Mao's repertoire, and people will still debate whether she was greater than Yuna Kim. All this can change if Mao continues, of course, and wins more Worlds (and another Olympic medal).

Yu Na Kim is part of Mao's era though and Yu Na is much better than the next best skater of Michelle's era- Irina Slutskaya. Both Mao and Yu Na are much better skaters than Slutskaya. So that isnt really a fair comparision.

Mao has been dominant at all of Worlds, the Grand Prix final, and Four Continents which is one big edge over Michelle. Michelle wasnt at all dominant at the grand prix final- winning it only once. She never even bothered to skate at Four Continents. Michelle's worlds record is definitely better and more consistent but Mao in many ways has a more complete career.

There is a huge difference to Mao having to miss Turin and Michelle having to miss Lillehammer. Michelle would have probably been about 12th at the 94 Games. Mao was screwed out of a huge chance of winning the 2006 OGM.

I agree relative to what she showed as a 15 year old I can see how Mao has been dissapointing to some. Many predicted she would dominate for years and be the best skater ever. Nearly everyone said she was the best 15 year old skater they ever saw, including Lipinski. She lost her way for awhile, losing her jump consistency, jump quality, and some questionable coaching and program choices. She did very well but wasnt the dominant skater people predicted in her youth.

gotoschool · May 17, 2014

Just my view, but overall, I really think it is better just to take the performances of the skaters and the skaters themselves for the joy and artistic beauty they give to me, instead of measuring them based on the weight of gold they have obtained at certain competitions, especially when judges are such a small and sometimes suspect group of people. But even by this gold standard, it seems harsh to say Mao didn't live up to her potential, with 20 Gold medals in professional international competitions, though she admittedly had difficulty reworking her jumps from 2010-2012. But the end result was worth it because the LP performance at Sochi and her performances at Worlds alone show one of the greatest culminations of artistic and technical talent and achievement. I'll take a few falls into the valley of inconsistency for performances that reach such a high peak.

minze · May 17, 2014

gotoschool said:
Just my view, but overall, I really think it is better just to take the performances of the skaters and the skaters themselves for the joy and artistic beauty they give to me, instead of measuring them based on the weight of gold they have obtained at certain competitions, especially when judges are such a small and sometimes suspect group of people. But even by this gold standard, it seems harsh to say Mao didn't live up to her potential, with 20 Gold medals in professional international competitions, though she admittedly had difficulty reworking her jumps from 2010-2012. But the end result was worth it because the LP performance at Sochi and her performances at Worlds alone show one of the greatest culminations of artistic and technical talent and achievement. I'll take a few falls into the valley of inconsistency for performances that reach such a high peak.

Exactly

Olympia · May 17, 2014

gotoschool said:
Just my view, but overall, I really think it is better just to take the performances of the skaters and the skaters themselves for the joy and artistic beauty they give to me, instead of measuring them based on the weight of gold they have obtained at certain competitions, especially when judges are such a small and sometimes suspect group of people. But even by this gold standard, it seems harsh to say Mao didn't live up to her potential, with 20 Gold medals in professional international competitions, though she admittedly had difficulty reworking her jumps from 2010-2012. But the end result was worth it because the LP performance at Sochi and her performances at Worlds alone show one of the greatest culminations of artistic and technical talent and achievement. I'll take a few falls into the valley of inconsistency for performances that reach such a high peak.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

pointyourtoe · May 17, 2014

First of all, I love Mao as a skater and think she has nothing to prove, she is to me one of the all time greats in terms of skills, artistry, competitive record and legacy. But since you guys are playing the comparison game..

pangtongfan said:
Yu Na Kim is part of Mao's era though and Yu Na is much better than the next best skater of Michelle's era- Irina Slutskaya. Both Mao and Yu Na are much better skaters than Slutskaya. So that isnt really a fair comparision.

Directly comparing skating skills between skaters of different generations is problematic to me. What is true is that Slutskaya was a FAR more consistent competitor during her era than Asada ever was. She delivered countless clean competitions during her prime when she traded titles with Kwan, notwithstanding the period when she suffered personal illness and the illness of her mother..Asada on the other hand..

Mao has been dominant at all of Worlds, the Grand Prix final, and Four Continents which is one big edge over Michelle. Michelle wasnt at all dominant at the grand prix final- winning it only once. She never even bothered to skate at Four Continents. Michelle's worlds record is definitely better and more consistent but Mao in many ways has a more complete career.

You know who else has 3 4 continent titles? Fumie Suguri. In any serious debate over skaters' competitive records, 4 continents doesn't really matter much. We should also keep in mind 2 factors: when Kwan actually competed in the GPF, it was a much more grueling event with 2 free skates. Additionally, due to the skating boom in the 90's, for many years Kwan and other elite skaters at the time were being spread very thin with a good 3-4 more competitions a year than Asada was doing even in her busiest year.
Asada has won titles in a wider variety of GP competitions (winning titles in every current grand prix event), but isn't it better to peak at the top competitions (Olympics, Worlds)?

There is a huge difference to Mao having to miss Turin and Michelle having to miss Lillehammer. Michelle would have probably been about 12th at the 94 Games. Mao was screwed out of a huge chance of winning the 2006 OGM.

Sure but since we're talking about the Olympics, that brings up another point: despite Asada's stunning free skate at Sochi, her ultimate placement (6th) means her Olympic record (2-6) is clearly inferior to both Slutskaya (5-2-3) and Kwan (2-3)

I think there is much more room for debate over whether Kwan or Slutskaya were the best of their era. It mostly boils down to what type of skater you prefer.
But Kim was by and far considered the superior skater of her era (even if I personally think Asada and Kim have very different strengths that ultimately make them closely matched in terms of skills and artistry)

Sandpiper · May 17, 2014

pointyourtoe said:
Directly comparing skating skills between skaters of different generations is problematic to me.

This. So much.

I think there is much more room for debate over whether Kwan or Slutskaya were the best of their era. It mostly boils down to what type of skater you prefer.
But Kim was by and far considered the superior skater of her era (even if I personally think Asada and Kim have very different strengths that ultimately make them closely matched in terms of skills and artistry)

Actually, I think I lowballed Michelle earlier. Even without OGM, I'd say she's the most successful skater of her era (I'll leave off "best." Though I can't get into Irina's skating no matter how hard I try, I'll give her credit for her difficult 3-3s and double Biellmann spin). Irina only won two world titles to Kwan's five--I don't think the extra GPF titles makes up for that. Irina has won Europeans a record seven times, which is astonishing, but Kwan can't participate in Europeans and 4CC was nothing back then (and isn't a whole lot even now). Their Olympic success was the same. And I don't think anyone would argue any of the Olympics winners (Lipinski, Hughes, Arakawa) had better careers than Kwan or Slutskaya.

Had Michelle won Olympic gold in Torino, she would've been the greatest skater since Sonja Henie. The only debate right now is whether Michelle is one of the all-time greats without the OGM, and for many people (myself included), she is. Mao, on the other hand, wouldn't even necessarily rank as the best of her own era had she won in Sochi. I think that does show, to some extent, that Mao wasn't as consistent a competitor, even though she had incredible abilities.

All this can change if Mao wins a few more world titles and medals in 2018 though. If she wins two more Worlds and a bronze at Olympics, I'll happily acknowledge that she lived up to all her potential (it doesn't matter to me that it took a longer career to do it--in fact, that impresses me more), grew into an excellent competitor, and is every bit as successful as Michelle.

jenaj · May 18, 2014

I just re-watched Mao's Olympic free skate at Sochi. Nothing is wrong with her. Something is wrong with the judging. That was one of the best free skates of all time. She should have placed first in the long program, by a comfortable margin.

Alain · May 18, 2014

I still do not understand what happened in Sochi SP. Just bad luck maybe.

gotoschool · May 18, 2014

For some reason, new posts for the Mao Asada thread are not appearing at the top of The Edge, so I thought I would put it here as well, since this thread is more active and visible.

Pirouetting on a pliant blade
that glides lightly across the ice
like sharply clipped wing tips
soaring through the sky,
forming acrobatic arabesques
that carve serpentine arcs into the ice.
Fully stretched leg extensions
rotating in a tight semi-circle.
Mesmerized by multi-directional step sequences
that dig into the emotions from every angle,
tapping channels into the tear ducts
like peeling layers off an onion
to reveal the full depth of human expression.
My pulse pounds as she tackles the triple axel.
With arrow straight back
and beautifully tight symmetrical spirals,
she drills whip-saw chills into my tingling spine.
Then in an exquisite wave-like motion
she releases me into the ebb and flow
of redemption, joy and melancholy.

Sam-Skwantch · May 18, 2014

For some reason, new posts for the Mao Asada thread are not appearing at the top of The Edge, so I thought I would put it here, since this thread is more active and visible.

. All of the skater's fan pages appear under "Fan Fest" and not the edge

I enjoyed your words on Mao....both times :yay:

Thx for sharing.

gotoschool · May 18, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
. All of the skater's fan pages appear under "Fan Fest" and not the edge

I enjoyed your words on Mao....both times :yay:

Thx for sharing.

I didn't know, so thanks for telling me. I'm glad you liked the description.

Sam-Skwantch · May 18, 2014

I navigate the threads by utilizing the "what's new" in the top left. It shows all recent posts in all threads and the first few lines of each comment.

Bartek · May 18, 2014

Sandpiper said:
This. So much.

Actually, I think I lowballed Michelle earlier. Even without OGM, I'd say she's the most successful skater of her era (I'll leave off "best." Though I can't get into Irina's skating no matter how hard I try, I'll give her credit for her difficult 3-3s and double Biellmann spin). Irina only won two world titles to Kwan's five--I don't think the extra GPF titles makes up for that. Irina has won Europeans a record seven times, which is astonishing, but Kwan can't participate in Europeans and 4CC was nothing back then (and isn't a whole lot even now). Their Olympic success was the same. And I don't think anyone would argue any of the Olympics winners (Lipinski, Hughes, Arakawa) had better careers than Kwan or Slutskaya.

Had Michelle won Olympic gold in Torino, she would've been the greatest skater since Sonja Henie. The only debate right now is whether Michelle is one of the all-time greats without the OGM, and for many people (myself included), she is. Mao, on the other hand, wouldn't even necessarily rank as the best of her own era had she won in Sochi. I think that does show, to some extent, that Mao wasn't as consistent a competitor, even though she had incredible abilities.

All this can change if Mao wins a few more world titles and medals in 2018 though. If she wins two more Worlds and a bronze at Olympics, I'll happily acknowledge that she lived up to all her potential (it doesn't matter to me that it took a longer career to do it--in fact, that impresses me more), grew into an excellent competitor, and is every bit as successful as Michelle.

In fact Irina dominated 2000-2002 and 2004-2006. She beat Kwan at each and every competition where they met apart from two World Championships where she was unlucky to have faced perfect Kwan while being imperfect herself. However, had she skated cleanly in the FS she would've defeated Kwan both times. In terms of being a dominant and the most successful skater Irina wins hands down because she won roughly 8 out of 10 competitons with Kwan and all the others she took part in. She won all her Grand Prix competitions, Grand Prix Finals, Europeans and the only failure was Worlds. Then from 2004-2005 she won everything apart from one GPF and the Torino Olympics. Slutskaya's record from the period they were big rivals with Kwan is actually more impressive because you can see win, win, win, win, win and so on.

gotoschool · May 18, 2014

pointyourtoe- Sure but since we're talking about the Olympics, that brings up another point: despite Asada's stunning free skate at Sochi, her ultimate placement (6th) means her Olympic record (2-6) is clearly inferior to both Slutskaya (5-2-3) and Kwan (2-3)[/B]

RABID All arguments about how Adelina deserved the top score and win over Yuna suddenly go silent when this (Mao's free program) is presented. No explanation except corruption.

Jenjai I just re-watched Mao's Olympic free skate at Sochi. Nothing is wrong with her. Something is wrong with the judging. That was one of the best free skates of all time. She should have placed first in the long program, by a comfortable margin.

Meoima Lol don't worry. I have only watched 3-4 of Mao's performances (out of all her entire career's programs) and they say I am a big Mao fan. Simply because I think Mao performed better than Yuna in the free skate at Sochi.
Seriously, I did not follow ladies events closely, so I didn't know Mao was this good in the LP. This deserves a world record. Even though she couldn't make it to the podium, she deserves over 150 for this performance.

It has been said many times in many places, but a lot of people believe Mao's placement and her score in Sochi are highly unjust.

Mathman · May 18, 2014

Bartek said:
... two World Championships where she was unlucky to have faced perfect Kwan while being imperfect herself. However, had she skated cleanly in the FS she would've defeated Kwan both times…

Interestingly, athletes themselves rarely speak of being unlucky or of what might have happened if they had performed better. After all, with a little luck and better performances Michelle might have won an Olympic gold medal or two.

What went wrong with Mao Asada?

umeko_yur1tasukee

nguyenghita

minze

minze

Sandpiper

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

gotoschool

minze

Olympia

pointyourtoe

Sandpiper

jenaj

Alain

Match Penalty

gotoschool

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

gotoschool

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Bartek

gotoschool

Mathman

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