What went wrong with Mao Asada?

Bartek said:

In fact Irina dominated 2000-2002 and 2004-2006. She beat Kwan at each and every competition where they met apart from two World Championships where she was unlucky to have faced perfect Kwan while being imperfect herself. However, had she skated cleanly in the FS she would've defeated Kwan both times. .

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But..she didn't. When comparing competitive records, people talk about the results, not the what-ifs. What if Tara was "unlucky" to fall in 98 Nagano, Kwan could've been an Olympic gold medalist.

In terms of being a dominant and the most successful skater Irina wins hands down because she won roughly 8 out of 10 competitons with Kwan and all the others she took part in. She won all her Grand Prix competitions, Grand Prix Finals, Europeans and the only failure was Worlds.
Then from 2004-2005 she won everything apart from one GPF and the Torino Olympics. Slutskaya's record from the period they were big rivals with Kwan is actually more impressive because you can see win, win, win, win, win and so on

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Peaking at the right time is incredibly important in skating and winning worlds >>> GPF. By 2014, the GPF has earned its place as the third most important competition after Oly and Worlds, but remember that it was only just created in 1996 when Kwan and Slutskaya were emerging.
Btw, I don't get why in these discussions people discount the period before Slutskaya became a true rival to Kwan (96-99). Sure, Slutskaya wasn't really a threat at that point, Kwan was battling for the title with other skaters, but all that shows is that Kwan became a title challenger much earlier in her career and maintained that for a decade, whereas Slutskaya had to climb longer to get to that level (consistently) for a number of years.

Like I said, when it comes to Kwan and Slutskaya, their records are neck and neck. Kwan's has the slight edge because she peaked at the right time (Worlds is always > GPF), while Slutskaya was more dominant overall starting in 2000. Kwan also has 9 world medals to Slutskaya's 5 btw.

gotoschool said:

It has been said many times in many places, but a lot of people believe Mao's placement and her score in Sochi are highly unjust.

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I think Asada possibly deserved to get the highest free skate score in Sochi, at the very least better than Sotnikova...however even if they gave her the 150 instead of Sot, she'd still be firmly 4th, off the podium.

pointyourtoe said:

I think Asada possibly deserved to get the highest free skate score in Sochi, at the very least better than Sotnikova...however even if they gave her the 150 instead of Sot, she'd still be firmly 4th, off the podium.

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And that would be right since she had that disastrous short... but still the fact that such a masterpiece received the same pcs of the much more blah performance of gold and lipnitskaya is so wrong...

pointyourtoe- her Mao’s ultimate placement (6th) means her Olympic record (2-6) is clearly inferior to both Slutskaya (5-2-3) and Kwan (2-3)

pointyourtoe- I think Asada possibly deserved to get the highest free skate score in Sochi, at the very least better than Adelina...however even if they gave Mao the 150 instead of Adelina, she'd still be firmly 4th, off the podium. That was my point.[/QUOTE]

But, these two statements are very different, so the basis of judgement has changed.

You originally said that Mao was 2nd and 6th in the Olympics (not 4th with a winning or world record LP) as if it was justified and that this made her "clearly inferior" to Slutskaya and Kwan on the Olympic front. I really don't think the words inferior should be used for such great skaters with multiple world championships as Kwan, Slutskaya or Asada, especially with her Sochi LP. It's just a question of personal preference, as it would be for evaluating a great composer or artist. How can a skater be inferior when they get near or break a world record or how can their "legacy" be tarnished by blatantly biased judging? While Mao is my favorite, I love Slutakaya's LP at 2005 Worlds and Kwan's Salome in 1996 as well. I also like to get away from an obsession with placements when performances, not judges often suspect scores, are what make the sport worth watching.

A first place finish in the LP and a possible world record would have put Mao at least in 4th. This isn't a judging thread and I think everyone is sick to death of talk about PCS, GOE and step sequence inflation and deflation, as well as overlooked edge and ur calls. But, sum all that up in the SP and LP and I do think it was possible for her to have gotten the bronze, if the competition had been scored fairly. The inflation was so severe that I think 6th is more ridiculous than 3rd, and there are some others who agree. Mao would have had 205 or 206 with a 149 or 150 LP and Mao's all-time highest score coming in internationally was 207, only Kim had scored higher and nobody else through the Grand Prix Season even reached 200. While Kostner's score seems reasonable, I just don't see Sotnikova legitimately matching Mao's highest score coming into the Olympics, or Gold with a fall, or Lipnitskaya with multiple falls. I think this is a reasonable assertion, though many if not most probably disagree with it.

But even if Mao had gotten 4th, the LP world record is probably worth more than a bronze medal, and with the LP and SP record earned in consecutive skates, everyone would look at Mao's legacy much differently. But, a legacy is rather empty to me because the profound emotional impact of the Sochi performance means more to me than any record or medal.

I do like Slutskaya and Kwan even more. But, another way to look at Mao's Olympic career in comparison to Kwan and Slutskaya is to ask the question, "Who had the greatest single performance in the Olympics that people will watch over and over again?" I'm not saying everyone would choose Mao, but her Olympic career definitely comes off looking much better because that performance was one of the best ever.

As I prefaced in my original comment, I was solely comparing competitive records and in that particular instance Olympic placements. I never insinuated that Asada's overall career or legacy should be downplayed because she was lowballed by the judges in the lp at Sochi.

My point was that even if she was 4th overall at Sochi, if we are assuming she's not coming back for Pyeongchang, Irina's 2 Olympic medals still trumps her 1 medal if we are just comparing competitive records.

Of course I completely agree that competitive records mean little when it comes to what an individual takes from skating. We all have our personal preferences and are all moved differently by different skaters. Mao's legacy isn't "tarnished" by her lack of an Olympic gold any less than Janet Lynn or Michelle Kwan. Ultimately, it will be her beautiful skating that speaks for itself decades after she retires.

pointyourtoe- I think there is much more room for debate over whether Kwan or Slutskaya were the best of their era. It mostly boils down to what type of skater you prefer.
But Kim was by and far considered the superior skater of her era (even if I personally think Asada and Kim have very different strengths that ultimately make them closely matched in terms of skills and artistry)

If Mao has won more World Championships (3) and Grand Prix Championships (4) than Yuna Kim (2) and (3) and now holds the world record for the SP and if scored fairly could have likely had the record for the LP, how can Kim be “so by and far the superior skater of her era,” especially since she has only entered 3 major international competitions in the last 4 years. Their head to head record at Worlds is tied at 3-3. Kim has a better record in the Olympics but most agree Mao's free-skate at Sochi was better. I understand that you hold a contrasting view, but your comment suggests that this is an opinion held by most everyone, and it is preceded by a comment of how closely matched Slutskaya and Kwan are. This kind of blanket statement suggests that Mao isn't even in the same league or that she has never even beaten Kim, which is ridiculous.



pointyourtoe- My point was that even if she was 4th overall at Sochi, if we are assuming she's not coming back for Pyeongchang, Irina's 2 Olympic medals still trumps her 1 medal if we are just comparing competitive records.

I understand your point, but I still claim that Mao could have got 3rd under fair scoring. However, if we are comparing competitive records overall at the same age of 23 and consider only medals actually won, Mao now has 3 world championships, 4 Grand Prix Championships and 1 Olympic silver medal, while Irina had 1 world championship, 3 Grand Prix Championships and 1 Olympic silver medal.

Kwan vs. Slutskaya:
- Kwan won more of the bigger prizes (Worlds), and had a more successful/decorated career, but Slutskaya's GPF and Euros success makes it closer than the Worlds/Olympics indicates.
- Not sure who won more of their head-to-heads over the years. Bartek's post seems to imply Slutskaya, but Slutskaya also wasn't a threat to Kwan 1996-99. I'll set it at equal.

Kim vs. Asada:
- Kim is the more decorated athlete: Olympic gold + Olympic silver + 2 Worlds > Olympic silver + 3 Worlds.
- Kim won most of their head-to-heads.

...I don't know about anyone else, but I'd say the former looks more arguable than the latter.

I don't think Mao would've been on the podium in Sochi no matter how they scored her LP. But even if she would've been, I think there's something to be said about looking at actual results instead of what-ifs. Because if we can pretend Mao has a second Olympic medal, then the Kwan fans can say she was robbed in Nagano, the Irina fans can say she was robbed in Salt Lake, the Yuna fans can say she was robbed of a third world title and Olympic gold to boot... It goes on, endlessly, and we're not gonna have any kind of agreement on what their "actual" medals were.

I think it speaks quite well of Mao, her abilities, and her charm, that she's touted as one of the standard-bearers for ladies FS alongside Kim despite Kim dominating their rivalry. It's perfectly okay to prefer Mao while recognizing that Kim was the more dominant skater.

gotoschool said:

pointyourtoe- I think there is much more room for debate over whether Kwan or Slutskaya were the best of their era. It mostly boils down to what type of skater you prefer.
But Kim was by and far considered the superior skater of her era (even if I personally think Asada and Kim have very different strengths that ultimately make them closely matched in terms of skills and artistry)

If Mao has won more World Championships (3) and Grand Prix Championships (4) than Yuna Kim (2) and (3) and now holds the world record for the SP and if scored fairly could have likely had the record for the LP, how can Kim be “so by and far the superior skater of her era,” especially since she has only entered 3 major international competitions in the last 4 years. Their head to head record at Worlds is tied at 3-3. Kim has a better record in the Olympics but most agree Mao's free-skate at Sochi was better. I understand that you hold a contrasting view, but your comment suggests that this is an opinion held by most everyone, and it is preceded by a comment of how closely matched Slutskaya and Kwan are. This kind of blanket statement suggests that Mao isn't even in the same league or that she has never even beaten Kim, which is ridiculous.



pointyourtoe- My point was that even if she was 4th overall at Sochi, if we are assuming she's not coming back for Pyeongchang, Irina's 2 Olympic medals still trumps her 1 medal if we are just comparing competitive records.

I understand your point, but I still claim that Mao could have got 3rd under fair scoring. However, if we are comparing competitive records overall at the same age of 23 and consider only medals actually won, Mao now has 3 world championships, 4 Grand Prix Championships and 1 Olympic silver medal, while Irina had 1 world championship, 3 Grand Prix Championships and 1 Olympic silver medal.

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The problem is she lost too much and GPF cannot be tie breaker. Her LP in Sochi couldn't break world lecord in real world and in fact, this is not important cuz this sports is not swimming.

Tompson said:

The problem is she lost too much and GPF cannot be tie breaker. Her LP in Sochi couldn't break world lecord in real world and in fact, this is not important cuz this sports is not swimming.

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My reply to your assertion: Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams. Williams never won the big prize but no one disputes his legendary status. Like a Yankee fan cherishing a heated rivalry I love the fact that a large part of "my skater's" reputation came from the fact that she was Mao's greatest rival. To diminish her is to diminish Yuna (not that I am saying you are doing that).

Tompson said:

The problem is she lost too much and GPF cannot be tie breaker. Her LP in Sochi couldn't break world lecord in real world and in fact, this is not important cuz this sports is not swimming.

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what? she lost too much? She didn't win every competition, but count her medals and compare to her comp temporaries and tell me who besides Yuna Kim can compare.

Sandpiper said:

Kwan vs. Slutskaya:
- Kwan won more of the bigger prizes (Worlds), and had a more successful/decorated career, but Slutskaya's GPF and Euros success makes it closer than the Worlds/Olympics indicates.
- Not sure who won more of their head-to-heads over the years. Bartek's post seems to imply Slutskaya, but Slutskaya also wasn't a threat to Kwan 1996-99. I'll set it at equal.

Kim vs. Asada:
- Kim is the more decorated athlete: Olympic gold + Olympic silver + 2 Worlds > Olympic silver + 3 Worlds.
- Kim won most of their head-to-heads.

...I don't know about anyone else, but I'd say the former looks more arguable than the latter.

I don't think Mao would've been on the podium in Sochi no matter how they scored her LP. But even if she would've been, I think there's something to be said about looking at actual results instead of what-ifs. Because if we can pretend Mao has a second Olympic medal, then the Kwan fans can say she was robbed in Nagano, the Irina fans can say she was robbed in Salt Lake, the Yuna fans can say she was robbed of a third world title and Olympic gold to boot... It goes on, endlessly, and we're not gonna have any kind of agreement on what their "actual" medals were.

I think it speaks quite well of Mao, her abilities, and her charm, that she's touted as one of the standard-bearers for ladies FS alongside Kim despite Kim dominating their rivalry. It's perfectly okay to prefer Mao while recognizing that Kim was the more dominant skater.

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I don't understand how your comparisons answer the question What went wrong with Mao Asada? And how this thread became Mao vs Kim once more.

There are some who never won and are still remembered in history as one of the great's and there are some who won everything yet barely anyone knows who they are. Its the legacy you leave behind and the impact you've made not just how much gold medals you have or don't have.

As long as Mao is happy with herself, nothing "went wrong" no matter what anyone else says.

gotoschool said:

If Mao has won more World Championships (3) and Grand Prix Championships (4) than Yuna Kim (2) and (3) and now holds the world record for the SP and if scored fairly could have likely had the record for the LP, how can Kim be “so by and far the superior skater of her era,” especially since she has only entered 3 major international competitions in the last 4 years. Their head to head record at Worlds is tied at 3-3. Kim has a better record in the Olympics but most agree Mao's free-skate at Sochi was better. I understand that you hold a contrasting view, but your comment suggests that this is an opinion held by most everyone, and it is preceded by a comment of how closely matched Slutskaya and Kwan are. This kind of blanket statement suggests that Mao isn't even in the same league or that she has never even beaten Kim, which is ridiculous

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You are getting ridiculous here. All you said just some "BIG IFs" could never happend. If you prefer that, then i could say too if Yuna got her 2nd gold olympic medal, that's a pretty comparison game over between her and Mao, if that was happen, who care about the rest? But no, that was not happend, Yuna have OGM & OSM and Mao has OSM & 6th, that's all. Don't use if phrase here.

About the rest, before 2009 they were pretty much head to head in every competition they entered, but since 2009 till now, Mao just officially beat Yuna once in 2010 Worlds, the rest she was defeated or win without Yuna shows up. Don't know how can you use that to compare with Yuna? Beside Grand Prix, Mao defenitely not tied with Yuna. Yuna just entered 3 major comps in the last 4 years and still got 2 silvers and 1 gold with over 200 points, that's scream loudly about her ability to win every grand prix events if she show up, no?

Does anyone know if Mao ever tried to train a 3Lo-3Lo?

jkun said:

Does anyone know if Mao ever tried to train a 3Lo-3Lo?

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http://youtu.be/xWz30bLzSdE?t=1m35s

Besides this, for half of 2010-2011 she claimed her planned content in the SP was 3A, 3Lo-3Lo and 3F. We never saw it though, probably because she had more than enough problems without it.

This thread is ridiculous. Nothing went wrong with Mao Asada. She won 3 world championships and an Olympic silver medal. She was just a bit of a headcase from time to time.

This is like "What went wrong with Irina Slutskaya?" or something.

UnsaneLily87 said:

This thread is ridiculous. Nothing went wrong with Mao Asada. She won 3 world championships and an Olympic silver medal. She was just a bit of a headcase from time to time.

This is like "What went wrong with Irina Slutskaya?" or something.

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Well, things did go wrong with Irina Slutskaya. She was (a) robbed of her 2002 OGM, (b) often underachieving against Kwan at Worlds, and (c) seriously ill with vasculitis in 2004. Finally in 2006 she blew her chance to take the OGM.

As for Mao being a headcase, I would use "headcase" for a competitor who messes up when there's nothing else that's really wrong. Like pre-2011 Carolina, even though her technique is brilliant and she practices well, can have subpar competitions - I would call that being a headcase. For Mao, that is true for things such as her SP at 2007 Worlds, 2007 GPF, 2014 in Sochi, 2013 Worlds. Lots of her worse outings were due to technique/external issues, though. Some of 2009, most of the 2010-11 season, the latter half of 2011-12.

CarneAsada said:

Well, things did go wrong with Irina Slutskaya. She was (a) robbed of her 2002 OGM, (b) often underachieving against Kwan at Worlds, and (c) seriously ill with vasculitis in 2004. Finally in 2006 she blew her chance to take the OGM.

As for Mao being a headcase, I would use "headcase" for a competitor who messes up when there's nothing else that's really wrong. For Mao, that is true for things such as her SP at 2007 Worlds, 2007 GPF, 2014 in Sochi, 2013 Worlds. Lots of her worse outings were due to technique/external issues, though. Some of 2009, most of the 2010-11 season, the latter half of 2011-12.

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Didn't her mom die somewhere in there too? I am sure that affected her.

Yes, late 2011. I include that in "external factors," so that would be the first half of 2012.

Minze2001 said:

I don't understand how your comparisons answer the question What went wrong with Mao Asada? And how this thread became Mao vs Kim once more.

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Well, I apologize for going off topic--though other topics in the forum have wandered far more than I did in my post. That particular post was not geared toward answering the original question; it was part of a discussion about dominance in a particular era that started in this thread, if you read the posts above mine. People were comparing Mao vs. Yuna and Irina vs. Michelle, and I believe the latter was a closer rivalry (in terms of results--not ability). That was my post with supporting evidence. And I've stated before that I think Michelle ultimately ruled her era over Irina despite all this, so I am not saying Mao was inferior to Irina or anything like that.

I don't think asking what went wrong with Mao is a way of diminishing her, though perhaps the title could've been phrased better. Again, I think it's a testament to Mao's vast potential and talent that, despite her incredible results, some people still think she could've done better. And I believe the legacy Mao leaves behind will be greater than what her competitive results (good as they are) indicate. However, I believe it is okay to discuss if she could've done even better than she did, and what--if anything--prevented her from doing even more.

I just can't with this thread.. I bet people will not arguing this much if she's no.3 or 4 or 5 or whatever.

She achieved so much but people still think it isn't enough? don't make me laugh..