Agreed! But they weren't holding her mink at knifepoint.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
I feel the same way about the pressure put on Lu Chen in the 1998 olympics by the chinese camp. As she finished her LP she looked so relieved as though she had just earned freedom and unlimeted meals for her family at home, as if they would have been executed if she was to perform poorly.
ITA what you said.Originally posted by SusanBeth
I think she is the best coach for developing artistry in skaters. She wins that hands down. However, give her a student with technical flaws and you will get a very artistic skater with technical flaws.
I am questioning the ethics of all of these last minute switches. It seems wrong to me that a coach could part with a student 2 weeks before nationals and go to her competitor a few weeks before worlds and get credited for the win. Are there any kind of standards for professional ethics among skating coaches? (Stop laughing! I know, skating and ethics in the same sentence?????) It seems a horrible conflict of interests. Callahan, in particular, has every right to be really po'd. She could have waited till the season was over.
Well didn't the Japanese federation fire Richard Callaghan because he didn't accompany his skater to Japanese Nationals? If he felt the need to be with that loser Jenny Kirk rather than accompany Shizuka to her Japanese nationals, then it served him right that she switched coaches and TT gets all the glory. Plus TT did a fabulous job with Shizuka, Richard couldn't have gotten that artistic performance out of Shizuka.
News to me. Last I heard, the Japanese Federation were begging RC to take Yoshie.
BTW, aren't Japanese Nats and US Nats like 2 months apart?
Answered it myself. Japan Nats were Dec 25-27. US Nats Jan 3-11.
Last edited by berthes ghost; 04-06-2004 at 06:25 PM.
she coached G&G in 1991... and then they turned pro and Katia said her father blamed TT even though it was Sergei who suggested they go pro!
Soogar,If he felt the need to be with that loser Jenny Kirk rather than accompany Shizuka to her Japanese nationals, then it served him right that she switched coaches and TT gets all the glory
Why so harsh on Jenny Kirk (here and in other threads)? Did she pee in your Cheerios? Granted she didn't have a good World's, but isn't calling her a loser a little mean spirited? Last year she had to withdraw because of injury. She seems to be a hard worker, has had a lot to deal with, and always has such great attitude. Even after a fall she still manages to smile and continues to sell her program. IMO that is not a loser.
Piel
How is freedom of choice an "ethical" issue?? If a coach or a skater reaches a point where they feel it's not working, for whatever reasons, why shouldn't they make a change at whatever time they want too? Any significant decision like a coaching change involves risk (especially mid season) but ethics??? I just don't understand how a mid season change decision by a skater or a coach could be called out as unethical in a free country. Now judging is a whole 'nother matter.Originally posted by SusanBeth
I am questioning the ethics of all of these last minute switches. It seems wrong to me that a coach could part with a student 2 weeks before nationals and go to her competitor a few weeks before worlds and get credited for the win. Are there any kind of standards for professional ethics among skating coaches? (Stop laughing! I know, skating and ethics in the same sentence?????
I just think it would be naive of anyone to think that "Coach A did all the work for Skater X, and now Coach B steps in two weeks/months before World's and takes all the credit." We are all free to form our own opinions about who has had a positive or negative impact on results, and who deserves credit in our own minds. The skaters / coaches are the ones who really have to decide whether the changes are positive for THEM or not.
Just my 2 cents.
DG
I don't like Jenny b/c she seems like a waste of time. She always has an excuse, ie costume didn't fit right, I'm sick, blah blah. She should have been grateful that she made the world team and gave it all that she had. 3 Lousy performances, she couldn't even skate a clean short.
Plus if Richard takes money from both skaters, he needs to make more of an effort to be with Shizuka as he does Jenny. It's not fair to shortchange one for the other and if he can't be all there for one, then he needs to make a choice. Shizuka probably chose TT b/c TT didn't have Sasha anymore and could be there for her.
Last edited by soogar; 04-06-2004 at 10:39 PM.
Illness and injury are not really something she CHOSE. Are you saying that she didn't try to do her best? Who would you have placed on the world team instead of Jenny? I get the impression that you think someone else was more worthy?
Since we don't know what is going on behind the scenes, we can't say what happened in this particular instance. However, these switches can give the appearance of being unethical and can also actually be unethical. Before you dismiss the ''appearance'' part, consider how the ''slime factor made public'' has harmed figure skating. Lord knows, it's been slimy for years. It just didn't look so bad until recently.
Example of hypothetical unethical scenerio-
Coach sees her student is falling to pieces. She has no stomach for standing rinkside looking like a fur covered loser. Suddenly, she gets a better offer.(That could be- a better chance at winning, more money, a chance to symbolically kick skater A's rear etc) She dumps skater A just weeks before a major competition. In doing this, the coach could harm skater A's chances and through that influence the outcome of a competition.
Many, many professions have a standard for professional behavior. It's a way of protecting the clients and also the profession's reputation. I am wondering if there is a standard for skating coaches.
ETA- As far as credit for the win, I'm sure that credit can effect a coaches fees and opportunities.
Last edited by SusanBeth; 04-07-2004 at 12:01 AM.
Diva-Tarasova never coached A&P. They spent their entire career in France with Muriel Boucher-Zazoui. In their last year, they did some work with Dubova on their compulsories. Whatever happened to Dubova, anyway? She used to be one of the "power coaches". I saw her at 4cc's this year, but I don't know who she was with.
C&S are back with the Tarasova/Usova/Platov camp. They've switched a lot over the years. She also did work with FP&M, although she was not their primary coach. She did some work with them in the summers.
I never knew Tarasova worked with Gordeeva&Grinkov. I thought they finished their career with Marina Zoueva.
Antilles, Tonicelli said that TT coached G&G in 91 and then they went pro. It's possible that they went with Zoueva in their reinstatement bid in 94 and their second pro run after that, thus they did indeed "finish their career" with her.
The reason Callaghan didn't go to Japanese Nationals had nothing to do with Jenny Kirk. This season, Japanese Nationals coincided with Christmas, and THAT was the reason Callaghan didn't go to Japan. He wanted to spend Christmas with his family.Originally posted by soogar
Well didn't the Japanese federation fire Richard Callaghan because he didn't accompany his skater to Japanese Nationals? If he felt the need to be with that loser Jenny Kirk rather than accompany Shizuka to her Japanese nationals, then it served him right that she switched coaches and TT gets all the glory. Plus TT did a fabulous job with Shizuka, Richard couldn't have gotten that artistic performance out of Shizuka.
The Japanese federation was incensed about Callaghan not being at JN for Arakawa, and that's why they fired him. It was right around that time that Sasha split with Tarasova (or vice versa). Perhaps in the background, the Japanese Federation had already sent feelers out to TT, who supposedly had been watching Arakawa closely during the Grand Prix. We will probably never know the complete story, but I have a suspicion that the split with Sasha had been brewing for some time and the Japanese Federation may have had something to do with it, at least indirectly.
According to My Sergei, G&G wanted to change coach from Leoniwich to Tarasova, but wanted to keep Marina Zueva as choreographer. Zueva declined to continue with Tarasova, because Tarasova was also a choreographer. For G&G first pro seasons TT made numbers like, Sheracherade, Meditation, Pajacci and Jesus Christ Superstar. According to the book they parted companies after approx. one year because TT could not deliver the money nor the shows as promised G&G opted to go back to SOI, where they did numbers choreographed by Toller Cranston and the SOI regular choreographers. Marina Zueva was approached when they planned the Olympic comeback, and continued doing most of their numbers for the rest of the pro career, save The Man I Love by Sandra Besic
Tarasova's students
She started off with Rodnina & Zaitsev in pairs. They've just left the famous Zhuk at the time (the one Gordeeva writes so much about in My Sergei. Their style and choreography always remained more Zhuk than Tarasova. (2 Olympic Golds with TT. - '76 & '80)
When she started coaching dancers, her first famous team was Moiseeva & Minenkov. They were good, but never captured the Olympic gold. They were, however, the first team that allowed Tarasova to develop her unique style.
The first Olympic champions that she raised were Bestemianova & Bukin. They reflected TT's intense choreo better than anyone else. When I think of TT's style, this is the team I always think of. Really, they were the only champions that she raised from scratch. (1 Olympic Gold with TT - '84; total TT Ol. g's -- 3).
Then, just before the '88 Olympics, Klimova & Ponomarenko left their long time coach Dubova to go to TT. Their superb technique certainly has nothing to do with TT, but she did add a certain "umph" to their style. (1 gold - '88; total TT's O g's -- 4).
After that, TT retired from competitive coaching, and concentrated on theater (she also worked with G&G during this time). Then (it's not entirely clear to me how, as there are many versions) she saw Kulik training with Kudryavtsev; he wanted to train with her, she felt compelled to help him, so she took him on. Around the same time, Gretchuk & Platov left Lininchuk; they could not go back to Dubova; they've been wanting to go to TT. Now that she was out of retirement, she took them on ('98 -- 1 Olympic gold each -- total TT O g's -- 6)
Then of course Yagudin left Mishin. His '02 gold brought TT's total to 7.
Right now, she tains Shizuka, Griazev, Kulikova & Novikov (#3 Russian dance team), she works with Chait & Sakhnovsky (though their main coach is Platov), she'll obviously be working with Joubert. Rumors are floating that she may do choreography for Faiella & Scalli. I hope she continues to work with Weir, as I think his success this year is on part due to her influence.
The list of skaters who have spent at least some time with her over the last decade is almost endless -- Fusar-Poli & Margaglio, Shen & Zhao, Abitbol & Bernadis, Bourne & Kraatz, Grushina & Goncharov, Cohen, Usova & Platov...
TT's health
The current "official theory" is that the whole time TT meant not her own health, but the health of her elderly mother and her husband Krainev. I won't even comment on what I think of the veracity of that...
Dubova
I think she is probably the most unlucky of coaches. She created Klimova & Ponomarenko only to have them leave just before their big Olympic victory. Her next prized students Usova & Zhulin came in second in '94 when it seemed the gold was theirs. Her next promising stars Navka & Gezalyan broke up because of her affair with Zhulin. She fell out of favor with Piseev and Co., meaning she couldn't take on any young Russian teams. The whole experience left her very bitter (judging from some interviews I've read). Right now, she is coaching some Asian and Australian teams. At this Worlds, her teams' best result was 22nd - from a Chinese pair she coaches.
Last edited by Ptichka; 04-07-2004 at 11:25 AM.
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