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Thread: Question about Tarasova

  1. #61
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    USFSA & CoP
    It makes sense to have Nationals judged by the same system as Worlds. It would be quite silly for USFSA to judge Nationals using ordinals and then send skaters to CoP-judged Worlds. It would put US skaters at a disadvantage, since programs should be created differently for the two systems.

    Third spot on US team
    Once again, I fully realize that USFSA, like any other federations, has the authority to send whomever they chose. All I was pointing out is that so far noone has actually given me a concrete example of when they chose to do so. The only way I can see USFSA do this is if a major skater is out due to injury (such as they could have sent Tim instead of Matt had Tim been OK to skate).

    In other federations, it's different (Russia sent Irina & Vika, France did not send Stanick; Japan announced pre-Nationals they were sending Fumie and Shizuka no matter what, etc.).
    Last edited by Ptichka; 04-07-2004 at 01:37 PM.

  2. #62
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    All I was pointing out is that so far noone has actually given me a concrete example of when they chose to do so.
    Because they never have. You are absolutely right, the USFSA does not operate like the other federations.

    Soogar, I think that you're grossly overestimating the importance of the 3rd player. The top 2 need to finish with a total above 13. The 3rd person need not even make it out of qualis. 93 worlds was about Nancy messing up, not Tonia.
    Last edited by berthes ghost; 04-07-2004 at 01:49 PM.

  3. #63
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    Originally posted by soogar
    Richard spending Christmas with his family is a really lame excuse for not accompanying Shizuka to Nationals. If Todd had an event or Nationals on Christmas, I'm pretty sure Richard would drop everything for him. Plus Richard already travels a lot for his job. Working on holidays is almost a requirement for figure skating (esp with shows and events scheduled around the holidays). He accepted money from the Japanese Federation to coach their skater , therefore he has to fulfill his job obligations which include going to the girl's competitions. Also Japanese Nationals was the most important competition for Shizuka b/c if she didn't do well there (and she placed 3rd which was barely making the team), her season is over unless the Federation puts her on the team.

    Also if the poster was correct in stating that Japanese Nationals and US Nationals were only a week apart, he was probably preparing Jenny for US Nationals while Shizuka was away at her nationals.
    I don't think wanting to spend time with your family at Christmas is a lame excuse. I can't think of a single Christmas that I haven't spent time with my family, and I sure would not want to be in Japan on business that whole week so that I would miss the entire thing.

    Maybe Callaghan might have worked with Todd during the Christmas holidays, but then he would have been working in the US where he could still get back to spend time with his family, quite a different thing from being half a world away in Japan. Most shows are not held on Christmas Day, and TV shows are taped weeks or even months earlier. BTW, US Nationals are NEVER held during Christmas week.

    And it had already been announced that Shizuka would be on the World team, so her future was not jeopardized by Callaghan's absence.

  4. #64
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    I wouldn't be surprised if the USFSA kept the old system just to be able to manipulate the placements for the team. The US is a litigous country, if the USFSA put whomever they felt like on the team despite Nationals results, they would have to expend dollars in legal help just to squash the lawsuits. When they manipulate the results , there is very little a skater can do to get on the team and a court of law isn't going to decide whether skater x was really better than skater y. With COP, you may very well have different results at Nationals and see 3 completely different skaters on the podium than the skaters who have had great results all season long. In fact , a skater left off the team who had won Nationals would have a stronger case in court than one who was marked low b/c the court can look at the victory as something concrete. Still, the USFSA can put anyone whom they wish on the team. When MK had her meltdown in 1997, she was held up b/c of her prior performances. Legitimately, she shouldn't have made the team as she had the worse mistakes in the LP of the top ladies. I don't argue with them putting her on the team at all, but this shows that the USFSA has great discretion as to whom they place on the team. Conversely, Tonya Harding in 1993 did not skate as horribly as MK in 1997 (she didn't skate well but at least she tried her 3 axel) and she was left off the team despite a 4rth place finish at the 1992 Olympics. They did not want her on the team and they weren't going to do her any favors.
    I agree with Hockeyfan that hell would have had to freeze over before DAn Hollander would make another world team when he failed to qualify. I would even say that Weir was a dead duck after he pulled out of nationals and several events and it was only b/c the mens' field was so pitiful , combined with his stellar skating that he was put on the World team. Considering that Johnny skated well at Worlds, he is not going to be left off the team next year regardless of whether he skates poorly at Nationals.

  5. #65
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    Chuckm: I don't consider spending Christmas with family as that important. You can spend time with your family during other times of the year. There are lots of people who have to work Christmas day and holidays making far less than Richard. Richard was obligated to go to Shizuka's nationals, no ands, ifs, and buts. If Christmas was such a big issue, he needed to approach the federation and tell them that before. Obviously the federation wanted him to go to her nationals and his attendance is something that any reasonable skater would expect. Plus just because she was named to the team doesn't mean that a poor performance at Nationals wouldn't wreck her confidence. Also international judges (at least in the old days) pay close attention to Nationals results and save the marks for the National champion. Being your country's best means something to the international judges. It doesn't guarantee a win, but it helps a little in saving marks.

  6. #66
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    You may attach little importance to Christmas, but then you are not Richard Callaghan, Soogar. And you don't know when he informed the Japanese Federation that he would be unable to attend Japanese Nationals. He may have told them that right from the beginning.

    Not only that, but he continued to coach Arakawa up until two weeks before Worlds. If the JF considered the contract broken by Callaghan's absence, they could have replaced him in December. Obviously Tarasova had other fish to fry and couldn't take Shizuka on right away, so the JF waited.

    What will the JF do if TT decides others of her students have a higher priority than Shizuka (and that is a possibility, as she has many students)? Will they then switch Arakawa to Robin Wagner?

  7. #67
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    The current rules are that whoever wins Nationals gets a spot. All other spots are up to the discretion of the USFSA.

    In Federations that compete in the Europeans, many have rules that dictate specific performance criteria at Euros. So that last year's German Champion, Smalun, had to qualify for '03 Worlds through a special qualification, as no German man performed well enough at Euros to qualify. (Each had some shining moments in Malmo, but each had more bad ones.)

    What I've never understood is why some Federations refuse to send anyone, when if nothing else, it would give younger skaters the experience of participating, getting credentials, meeting other athletes, etc.

  8. #68
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    chuckm:
    When he refused to attend nationals, at that point the Japanese Federation probably made the decision that they were not going to keep him as her coach. Changing a coach can be handled in different ways, but not everyone uncermoniously dumps their coach without notice, especially at a crucial point in the season. The JF kept Richard on until they could find a suitable replacement. TT just happened to be available, and she was the only coach without a top ranked girl who was free who would be able to do something for Shizuka. Now maybe they had an inkling that TT might be available but no one was certain whether Sasha would leave TT or not. I personally think that the Cohen camp initiated the split after the Grand Prix disappointment. Just looking at TT and Sasha together (even at Worlds) does not make me think that the split was acrimonious. I thought that TT had a lot of affection for Sasha.

    Now I don't know Richard, but he strikes me as a workaholic and I don't think that he is someone who would give any regard to spending the holidays with his family. He certainly didn't fret over separating Todd from his family when he moved all over the place in the hopes of occupying a top spot as a director of a rink. I think that Richard goes where the opportunity is and I think that he thought very little of Shizuka that he didn't attend her nationals. He was probably caught by surprise that she won the whole thing considering her results, placement at Nationals. I think Richard was looking at the girls that he had and he went with Jenny over Shizuka. Now why he would do that I don't know. Maybe he likes a challenge and Jenny is more of a challenge than Shizuka or maybe Jenny was just skating better than Shizuka at the time or he might like jenny more b/c he coached her longer and knows her better.

  9. #69
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I don't think wanting to spend time with your family at Christmas is a lame excuse. I can't think of a single Christmas that I haven't spent time with my family, and I sure would not want to be in Japan on business that whole week so that I would miss the entire thing.
    ITA. Not to get all religious in teh topic or anything... but if Callahan is a religious person(as least in teh Christian faith) he probably said that it wasn't possible to be gone... either way he, as a coach, deserves a few weeks off... his summers are shot with the getting new programs together... his winters are completely focused on competitions... it's only fair that he gets a holiday here and there... and it was probably discussed before she ever started working with him...

  10. #70
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    So let's say it's not about Christmas (even though I don't think Rich cares either way), what about the conflict of interest in coaching 2 top ladies. Before this worlds, had Jenny skated up to par she might have been in the top 5 and Shizuka probably was expected to make a top 5 showing as well. Maybe Richard spent more time with Jenny than Shizuka and showed favoritism. He did go to Jenny's nationals (could have taken his vacation then) and when Jenny made the World team, he might have been preoccupied with her progress. I don't know if the Japanese Federation expected Jenny to make the World team and with two top level skaters competing in the same event , how could Richard handle both skaters?
    Last edited by soogar; 04-07-2004 at 07:58 PM.

  11. #71
    On Edge Piel's Avatar
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    So, what's the answer? Should a coach refuse to take a skater if he/she already has a promising one? I would think that the goal of every coach would be to have all of his/her skaters in the top 10, 5, 3 whatever. Suppose Shizuka's season had turned out to be not so good instead of Jenny's, would you be calling for her coach to drop her?

  12. #72
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    He did go to Jenny's nationals (could have taken his vacation then)
    US Nationals aren't at Christmas... a vacation during Christmas is way more reasonable than just some time mid-January!

  13. #73
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    Most coaches try to space out their ladies. For example, when Frank had MK, he wouldn't take on any other top ladies but that didn't stop him from working with juniors and lower ranked girls. In this case, Richard had two skaters who from all appearances might not have had to compete together in the same group. Jenny wasn't a lock for the World team and who knew where Shizuka would have been when she started working with Richard. When Jenny made the team, and Shizuka finished 3rd at Grand Prix, it became apparent that they might be matched against eachother and in the same group to boot.

    Richard spaced the men he was coaching out. I'm not sure if he had Fedor at the same time as Todd, however let's say for argument sake he did, Fedor is a 2nd-3rd group skater while Todd normally skates in the final group. In this case, Jenny and Shizuka could have conceivably skated in the final group. It didn't turn out that way but Jenny "has" all the triples and a 3-3 combo (at least theoretically she does, she might have been doing them in practice), had she skated clean, she would have certainly made the top 5 with that presentation mixed with jumps.

    There are definitely conflicts when there are two top skaters with the same coach, jealousy occurs, the coach might favor one of the other. In Mishin's case, as soon as Yevgeny challenged Alexei in competitions and Mishin started favoring Yevgeny, Alexei upped and left. I'm not saying that there is jealousy, however Rich has coached Jenny for a longer time than Shizuka, plus Shizuka is from a different cultural background, he might have felt more confortable with Jenny than Shizuka and he might have spent more time with her on the ice.
    Last edited by soogar; 04-07-2004 at 08:50 PM.

  14. #74
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    Hockeyfan:
    It costs money to pay for airfare and hotel to send a skater to worlds. If a country has a skater that is sure not to make it out of qualifying round, it doesn't pay to send that skater.

  15. #75
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    Originally posted by soogar
    Hockeyfan:
    It costs money to pay for airfare and hotel to send a skater to worlds. If a country has a skater that is sure not to make it out of qualifying round, it doesn't pay to send that skater.
    I think it does, because the skater that gains experience and sees the best in person is one who has a chance to improve later on. That skater may get valuable advice from judges -- an awful practice, but one that exists -- or spark the interest of a great coach or choreographer, who would be willing to help the skater or the skater's coach. Or one of their idols might say, "great spin."

    How many times did Yao Bin compete, in order for him and the Chinese contingent to absorb everything around them, so that twenty years later, he's created World Champions who didn't have to learn everything themselves?

    When Worlds are in Europe, most people can get there by car or train, and if fans can pile up in a hotel room, so can skaters and their coaches. For Euros, there's little excuse. It's not the poorer countries that don't send their skaters, either. Possibly the poorer Federations, but if Uzbekistan can send skaters, Sweden should be able to. There were no Swedish or Danish women at Worlds this year.

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