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Thread: Figure Skating-ISU president must quit before sport dies

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    Sam if it makes you feel any better it goes both ways! Some people can't even criticize the Sochi farce without being labeled Russian-haters, even when it's not true. I was one of the few Sotnikova proponents here pre-Olympics, and was quite sad that the entire Olympic experience got ruined by the figure skating scandal. Before the rigged results ruined everything for me, I was enjoying the games and the ceremonies. Now that's all gone, unfortunately.
    You used the term "farce" which is quite emotional while "criticize" has quite a wide range. I could be quite sympathetic while discussing the inflated Adelina's score. Did not look like a 6 point margin to me. But there should be a line drawn. Why did it happen? Bring the facts of coruption rather than pointlessly accuse in 1000s posts. Otherwise, it's just an emotional conversation about opinions and the key thing is the rhetoric used. To me the argument: "I think Yuna was robbed - no, Adelina deserved the gold" is acceptable in all its variations. The argument: "down with the Russians, I am not a fan of the Russians" is absolutely not.

    We are not happy about the hockey in Sochi. There was the notorious call in the game with the US which was a severe blow to our morale. Should we have won (the score would be 3-2 12 minutes into the 3rd period), we would have had a much easier quarterfinal - all the tournament could have followed quite a different path. During the same game there were very dubious power play calls for the Americans. Who were the judges: the Americans and the Swedes. Are we still whining about that? No way, we should have been much stronger so that no judges could have ruined our victory - that's the predominant sentiment here. And I wish that were the sentiment in Korea - that their queen should have pushed the horizon a little bit more than she did in fact. Rather than crossing out one of the most significant figure skating nations.

  2. #47
    축복, 축도 RABID's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    Sam if it makes you feel any better it goes both ways! Some people can't even criticize the Sochi farce without being labeled Russian-haters, even when it's not true. I was one of the few Sotnikova proponents here pre-Olympics, and was quite sad that the entire Olympic experience got ruined by the figure skating scandal. Before the rigged results ruined everything for me, I was enjoying the games and the ceremonies. Now that's all gone, unfortunately.
    Same here, Ven. I too thought Adelina's jumps had potential to make some noise at the Olympics and would have been happy with her winning bronze ala Joannie Rochette. But at the same time and in a strange way it was almost the best outcome for Yuna. If she won it WOULDN'T have been "one for the ages" like her 2010 win was and yet ironically it was one "for the ages" even if for the wrong reasons. She left Sochi completely unscathed; a true Olympian in all the ways it is supposed to matter, legend intact and probably even enhanced. You can't say the same thing about Cinquanta and to an unfortunate degree, Adelina.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    I am saying I am not a fan of most particular skaters from any particular country.
    If you meant this, I beg your pardon. The direct quote: "I am not a fan of (the Russians, the Americans, the Japanese, etc.)" sounds somewhat broader. May be I just did not get it and should cool down.

  4. #49
    Love popcorn, hate horrendous costumes. Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    If you meant this, I beg your pardon. The direct quote: "I am not a fan of (the Russians, the Americans, the Japanese, etc.)" sounds somewhat broader. May be I just did not get it and should cool down.
    Sorry if you misunderstood. The guys in ESP called I/K "the Russians" when they commented worlds, it's just a different ways of addressing.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that is the key point. Is figure skating a participatory sport or a spectator sport? Should the scoring system cater to the skaters and coaches (CoP) or to the watchers (6.0)?
    I don't think it should necessarily 'cater' to the participants or the watchers. I was referring more to the fairness, accountability and credibility of the system itself. That is, while the new system is flawed, it at least has a more detailed and accessible method of marking and laying out how each skater/team was judged according to the elements. We didn't get the detailed protocols under the old system. At least now there is a way for both the competitors and the audience (as well as the commentators, t.v. networks & journalists) to access & print up the full breakdown of marks for each skater and see how that competitor was judged.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post

    Okay, you intend to throw out nearly 1/3 of the skating community, including many world class coaches, choreographers, skaters, ice dancers...?
    Not that I am a fan of the Russians, but this sounds even more unfair and will only harm figure skating.
    Who were caught cheating during the 6.0 era? Which country judges were banned for an entire year from judging any international competition? Who's cheating caused the end of the 6.0 era? If we throw out the CoP and go back to 6.0, who's the say Russia won't cheat again? Russia is not the only corrupt one but they were caught cheating in the past. That's a fact.

  7. #52
    Love popcorn, hate horrendous costumes. Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jump View Post
    Who were caught cheating during the 6.0 era? Which country judges were banned for an entire year from judging any international competition? Who's cheating caused the end of the 6.0 era? If we throw out the CoP and go back to 6.0, who's the say Russia won't cheat again? Russia is not the only corrupt one but they were caught cheating in the past. That's a fact.
    They were caught in the past and banned, they paid for what they did. That action couldn't prevent them and any other federation from cheating. It's the vague of this whole system, not the Russians. Banning only the Russians couldn't do anything good. Not to mention, they have many world class coaches and choreographers. Figure skating world needs them.

  8. #53
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    Banning one country or ethnicity or religion or anything shouldn't even be thought let alone suggested. I can't believe we even have to say that in this day and age.

    There are cheaters in every country, and they all need to go, plain and simple.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    Why are these two mutually exclusive? The most popular sports in the world cater to both participants and spectators.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    I don't think it should necessarily 'cater' to the participants or the watchers. I was referring more to the fairness, accountability and credibility of the system itself. That is, while the new system is flawed, it at least has a more detailed and accessible method of marking and laying out how each skater/team was judged according to the elements. We didn't get the detailed protocols under the old system. At least now there is a way for both the competitors and the audience (as well as the commentators, t.v. networks & journalists) to access & print up the full breakdown of marks for each skater and see how that competitor was judged.
    I don't know a single casual fan -- someone who just enjoys watching skating on TV -- who likes the IJS, knows anything about the IJS, cares anything about the IJS, or has any interest in perusing the protocols afterward. Someone gets the highest score and wins, someone gets the next highest score and gets second. To me it seemed more fun when someone might get a 6.0 for a truly mesmerizing performance, or when you could say, boo for judge number three: he gave my favorite a low mark.

    For the skaters, though, we should remember that 99.9% of competitive figure skating is not the Olympics. It is children at local club affairs, novices trying to make it to sectionals, etc. What was wrong with ordinal judging was that when your eight-year-old daughter finished third all you could tell her was, "I guess the judges liked Susie and Janie better than they liked you." With CoP you can tell her, "if you get your sit spin up to level 2 your can earn 0.3 more points and finish higher next time." This is good.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    I am sure that the poster had the intention to write what she actually wrote. This forum unfortunately does not have "ignore" button so that I am forced to read one-sided abusive posts from certain characters.
    There's abusive, and then there's thin-skinned. In some cases, wafer-thin-skinned.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    For the skaters, though, we should remember that 99.9% of competitive figure skating is not the Olympics. It is children at local club affairs, novices trying to make it to sectionals, etc. What was wrong with ordinal judging was that when your eight-year-old daughter finished third all you could tell her was, "I guess the judges liked Susie and Janie better than they liked you." With CoP you can tell her, "if you get your sit spin up to level 2 your can earn 0.3 more points and finish higher next time." This is good.
    This!!! And then some. I think it's good for the high level competitions too. The skaters can identify where they scored low.

    I like to think a few minor changes could make a world of difference. How about a once per program 2pt bonus for holding an element like a jump landing on a deep curved edge for longer than required. Use terminology like any element finished with exceptional impact on the performance. Even if everyone got the bonus regularly at least the sport would be encouraging what most would feel is a positive. Little things like that could please both hardened fans and keep the newer fans lust for action in tact.

  12. #57
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    Changing the scoring system is the secondary problem. The primary problem is getting rid of the corrupt people in the sport, starting with Cinquanta. The way things are now, it doesn't matter how the rulebook says to calculate scores ... the rulebook is ignored and the judges just ad-lib the numbers in order to verify predetermined results.

    Supplementing that first objective should then be the second objective of simplifying the scoring system ... because the more accessible and transparent the judging process is, the more scrutiny there will be on the judges ... and therefore they will have more pressure to be fair and objective, which is what we all want.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jump View Post
    Who were caught cheating during the 6.0 era? Which country judges were banned for an entire year from judging any international competition? Who's cheating caused the end of the 6.0 era? If we throw out the CoP and go back to 6.0, who's the say Russia won't cheat again? Russia
    a French and a Ukrainian
    so ban these 2 countries then

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    For the skaters, though, we should remember that 99.9% of competitive figure skating is not the Olympics. It is children at local club affairs, novices trying to make it to sectionals, etc. What was wrong with ordinal judging was that when your eight-year-old daughter finished third all you could tell her was, "I guess the judges liked Susie and Janie better than they liked you." With CoP you can tell her, "if you get your sit spin up to level 2 your can earn 0.3 more points and finish higher next time." This is good.
    Yes, this is the benefit of the new system. Whereas an ordinal wouldn't really tell you anything except what place you finished, the protocols and levels let skaters and their coaches know where they are strong and where they are weak. It's like a detailed report card at school. If a report card just gives you a 'B', with no accompanying breakdown, you don't know where to improve. But if you get a graduated series of marks on the different types of assignments you did, you know what to work on for next time.

  15. #60
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    This thread gonna be funny as hell. Focus on current ISU president.

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