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Thread: The COMPLETE Guide to Fixing the Scoring System and Improving Ice Skating

  1. #16
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    To an extent I agree, because I feel like a 3Z/3T plus a solo 3T should have a higher BV that a 3T/3T with a solo 3Z. However, although this adjustment would be easy for a computer to do, it makes it harder for the commentators to explain these details to the viewers.
    How is it hard for commentators to explain? They just say "look at this difficult combination the skater did, they will be rewarded for it." That's exactly what was said during 6.0 judging (and it's still what is said about most CoP moves), except that back then nobody was sure exactly how it would be rewarded. Skaters just went out there and hoped for the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    This all makes sense and seems great, but I think that the 1/2 loop should be given bonus points - a triple toe half loop triple salchow is harder IMO than a triple salchow triple toe because you need to make sure that the half loop gets you in the perfect position but doesn't go too high and lose any speed.
    Well it really depends on the skater. Joannie Rochette found it easier to do 3Toe+half loop+3Sal than she did a 3Sal+3Toe. Yuka Sato could do 3Sal in combo like that as well, but could definitely never do a back-end 3Toe. People would want to do both a back-end 3Toe and a back-end 3Sal in combo anyway under this system (or something even more difficult), so I think it would definitely be sufficiently rewarded.

  2. #17
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    There are some great ideas here! As soon as I have time, I will post my thoughts about some specific parts
    Could you try to calculate the TES of some famous performances basing on your rules (I'm not talking about the changes in the structure of the progams, obviously) and see how they change?

  3. #18
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Jump combinations should be receiving a bonus to reflect their additional difficulty. Example: doing a 3Axel+3Loop and solo 3Toe is harder than doing a 3Axel+3Toe and a solo 3Loop, however the current system doesn't reward it. The current system actually rewards the easier jump layout more, because it is easier to get +GOE on 3Axel+3Toe than it is on a 3Axel+3Loop! The following lists are a finely tuned system of values that reward jumps and combinations as objectively and pragmatically as possible.


    From the moment that a footwork sequence starts, a maximum of 25 seconds of movement will be counted for determining the level. A footwork sequence should have a clear rhythm and a discernible pattern, without significant deviation from a line or curve. Footwork should not be about traveling all over the ice and trying to cram in as many steps and turns as possible. Each pattern may only be used once per program for a footwork sequence.


    IMPROVING JUDGING QUALITY AND VISIBILITY:

    *The composition of judges at competitions will be changed to 1 technical specialist, 6 technical judges, and 6 program component judges. The technical specialist will be in charge of calling all elements and deductions and determining which technical elements of a skater's program will be counted for points in the final score. For footwork sequences, the technical specialist and each individual technical judge will be given a different criteria to look for in the sequence to determine the level (judges will not examine their specified criteria until the performance has concluded). The technical specialist and each individual technical judge will vote upon whether or not a jump should be called as underrotated, or if it should receive an edge violation.

    *The program component judges are necessary for this aspect of programs to be judged accurately; the program needs to be looked at on its own without being influenced and distracted by also scoring technical elements at the same time. Judges need to start separating the 5 program components properly; it would be perfectly fine for a skater to receive a '9' on skating skills but a '6' for interpretation (or vice versa), if that's what happened in the performance. Judges need to examine choreography not for how many transitions are in the program, but based upon the actual intellectual concept, visual appeal, and cohesiveness of the movement itself. There will no longer be a "judging corridor" that judges must worry about. All program component judges must have a firm mathematical understanding of what their scores mean (ie - you can't just say "this skater had better transitions" and score them .25 higher in that component. There must be a clear differential between the scores given to each skater for each performance, if that is what the performances merit).
    These are the best things for me
    For the other sections, I like the idea of GOEs having more importance, while I think that there aren't a lot of changes compared to the existent rules, and that in some parts (creating separate addional bunoses/penalties for each specific jump etc.) you're really really accurate. I personally don't have anything against complex rules (even if they involve complex calculations or if the "casual viewer" can't understand them), as long as they're useful, but I know that a lot of people have problems with this

  4. #19
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I personally don't have anything against complex rules (even if they involve complex calculations or if the "casual viewer" can't understand them), as long as they're useful, but I know that a lot of people have problems with this
    From my perspective -- a somewhat more than "casual" viewer who loves both the artistry and the athleticism of figure skating -- complex rules and calculations don't bother me if I can trust the integrity of the people doing the judging. Ultimately, I just want a fair result regardless of whether my favorites win or not.

  5. #20
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    The problem is, PCS guidelines is so vague and subjective. Personally I think PCS, must be like TES, is judged live and by the quality of the performance at that very moment. Skaters have their on and off days so their PCS couldn't stay the same for every competition or just raise gradually despite the quality. A skater might get 70 PCS at skate america because, then 90 PCS in GPF, then 80 PCS at worlds. Personally I think it's possible and more reasonable than constant 90s PCS in every competition.

  6. #21
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    Could you try to calculate the TES of some famous performances basing on your rules (I'm not talking about the changes in the structure of the progams, obviously) and see how they change?
    Yuzuru Hanyu's TES in the LP at 2014 Olympics would be scored as approximately 77.33 rather than 87.66 (including fall deductions). Assuming good judging his PCS would obviously be significantly lower than the 90.98 he received as well. We'd be looking at about 156 for that performance rather than 178.

    For a comparison between performances, at 2014 Worlds Hanyu's TES would increase to approximately 91.31 - a difference of 13.98 points for a clean performance as compared to a performance with two falls. In this particular instance it's not a huge differential between what happened in the current system (his TES increased by 12.27), although that's because under the current system Hanyu's 3S in sequence at the Olympics received no credit at all.

    The major difference is that under the current system Hanyu's 4S fall at the Olympics was worth 6.5 points. Under this system it would be worth 3.4 -- a very big difference in loss of points for falling on that element. His 3F fall under this system would also only be worth .9 points, rather than 2.4 points.

  7. #22
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    I still don't understand ISU's reason for rewarding a fall with so many points. It's like they are encouraging the skaters jump as much as they can.

    What about stumbling and put your hand on the ground or 2 foot? How many deduction it would be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Yuzuru Hanyu's TES in the LP at 2014 Olympics would be scored as approximately 77.33 rather than 87.66 (including fall deductions). Assuming good judging his PCS would obviously be significantly lower than the 90.98 he received as well. We'd be looking at about 156 for that performance rather than 178.

    For a comparison between performances, at 2014 Worlds Hanyu's TES would increase to approximately 91.31 - a difference of 13.98 points for a clean performance as compared to a performance with two falls. In this particular instance it's not a huge differential between what happened in the current system (his TES increased by 12.27), although that's because under the current system Hanyu's 3S in sequence at the Olympics received no credit at all.

    The major difference is that under the current system Hanyu's 4S fall at the Olympics was worth 6.5 points. Under this system it would be worth 3.4 -- a very big difference in loss of points for falling on that element. His 3F fall under this system would also only be worth .9 points, rather than 2.4 points.

    Can you show GOEs that you counted for jumps at Worlds ?

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    If it were valid in Sochi, the Olympic champions would be Volosozhar/Trankov, Sotnikova, Ten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    If it were valid in Sochi, the Olympic champions would be Volosozhar/Trankov, Sotnikova, Ten.

    I think you didn't counted Ten fall in the SP

  11. #26
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    If it were valid in Sochi, the Olympic champions would be Volosozhar/Trankov, Sotnikova, Ten.
    Are you sure about Sotnikova? KSU will dislike this guide.

  12. #27
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    The problem is, PCS guidelines is so vague and subjective. Personally I think PCS, must be like TES, is judged live and by the quality of the performance at that very moment. Skaters have their on and off days so their PCS couldn't stay the same for every competition or just raise gradually despite the quality. A skater might get 70 PCS at skate america because, then 90 PCS in GPF, then 80 PCS at worlds. Personally I think it's possible and more reasonable than constant 90s PCS in every competition.
    What do you mean PCS must be like TES?

  13. #28
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    What do you mean PCS must be like TES?
    But up and down PCS sounds more reasonable to me, rather than 90s PCS constant for top skaters all the time. Skaters have their day on and off. If even on their day off, their PCS are still over the top, it's unfair isn't it?
    Of course top skater should have more consistency than the rest, but that doesn't mean they don't have their day off.

  14. #29
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    But up and down PCS sounds more reasonable to me, rather than 90s PCS constant for top skaters all the time. Skaters have their day on and off. If even on their day off, their PCS are still over the top, it's unfair isn't it?
    Of course top skater should have more consistency than the rest, but that doesn't mean they don't have their day off.
    Yes of course but I don't understand what do you mean by PCS should be like TES. In the end they are up and down, depending on the performance. Usually (not always, see Kostner) when TES is good PCS are as well and vice versa.

  15. #30
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    Yes of course but I don't understand what do you mean by PCS should be like TES. In the end they are up and down, depending on the performance. Usually (not always, see Kostner) when TES is good PCS are as well and vice versa.
    Ah, I mean there should be more details guidelines about PCS just like TES, because at the moment, it's so vague and subjective. PCSs raise up then fall down without any reasonable explaination at all.

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