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Thread: The COMPLETE Guide to Fixing the Scoring System and Improving Ice Skating

  1. #46
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    As much as you think skaters will turn their attention to quality of spin, I still think it would be the same old with skaters contorting into Biellmanns to get the level, though as I mentioned, some will avoid attempting more complex spins and simply get the base level. A level can be assured (assuming the tech spec calls it appropriately), higher GOE certainly cannot be assured. Some judges might even give lower-than-ideal GOE if the spin is simpler. It's the reason skaters do the extra positions in the first place, even if SEVERAL of their positions aren't particularly aesthetic.
    The reason skaters go for all of the ungainly extra positions is because that is what gets rewarded. Both in the scoring system values and by the judges themselves, who fail to evaluate spins correctly these days in comparison to how well they've been performed throughout the history of skating. Hence why I address both of those issues. It's silly to say that a different set of rules wouldn't change the way people skate. Of course it would.

    Skaters will try to do what gives them points; what gives them the best chance of winning. When a skater sees someone do a Level 2 flying camel with +2 GOE and get 3.4 points for it, and their own Level 4 flying camel is getting less points, they will re-think and modify the way they skate. It automatically makes skaters want to go back to their basics and start trying to do a better spin. They make the obvious logical connection of "hey, grabbing onto my skate and trying to do half-assed donut position isn't giving me points. I should fix that."

    Young skaters learn about great skating and performance through synthesis. They look at people around them and on TV and set a standard for themselves of what they want to try and do. What's really sad is how skaters these days think that needlessly grabbing onto their blade is actually great skating. All of these skaters are doing these moves in exhibition performances, even though they aren't being judged on it. They've come to think this is simply normal and "good".

    Artistry isn't something you just automatically understand, but it IS something that you can see and are moved by. It influences you as a person and makes you want to achieve something like it. Figure skating right now is on a terrible path where the new generation of skaters really have no clue what artistry is, because they never see it anymore. Their skating will conform to the tick-off-the-boxes mentality that has now become the normal OR they will simply stop skating and take up an activity that actually gives them the ability to have artistic expression.

  2. #47
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    (a) Peer review -- others who have passed through all the training -- and anyone who is voted upon as a skating expert. For example, Kurt Browning or Nobu Sato. These people have dedicated their whole lives to the sport and are very much aware of how it works in the present. Anyone who is qualified should be able to call for a judge to provide reasoning for the scores they gave. This reasoning would be written down and stored on a website that everyone qualified could access. People would then vote upon whether or not they think the judge did a good job. The highest scored judges would be selected for the most important events. Lower scored judges would be selected for less important events. Some judges might receive too many votes of no confidence altogether and not be allowed to participate in judging international competitions, for a period of at least a couple years at which time they could re-submit themselves.
    And how do we know that Kurt Browning, or a Moskvina - could be anyone - would not vote against or in favor of a judge because they are biased or influenced by others?

  3. #48
    On the Ice
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    no matter how hard you try to improve fru*d skating..... as long as people judge it.... they will still find a way to manipulate scores.....

  4. #49
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    And how do we know that Kurt Browning, or a Moskvina - could be anyone - would not vote against or in favor of a judge because they are biased or influenced by others?
    Well, hopefully the entire process would help everyone to understand each other better and learn more. But there is no way to completely remove all "bias". In the end it just comes down to majority opinion. Whatever that will be, is what it will be. At least it's better than blatantly cheating judges being allowed to be appointed to competitions and not even trying to improve the overall standard.

  5. #50
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well, hopefully the entire process would help everyone to understand each other better and learn more. But there is no way to completely remove all "bias". In the end it just comes down to majority opinion. Whatever that will be, is what it will be. At least it's better than blatantly cheating judges being allowed to be appointed to competitions and not even trying to improve the overall standard.
    Well, if that can help I'm all for it. I have no problem with the majority opinion. I's just that I'm not hopeful because as the other user said above, when humans are involved they still find a way to manipulate fi they can benefit from it.
    In anycase, there will still be controversy. Not everyone will agree with some decisions made.

    Still, improving the system is a good thing and much needed. After all better do something than nothing.

  6. #51
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    There is something that I have thought for a while but couldn't find the right words to explain. It seems to me that CoP these days and 6.0 system are some how just the same.
    Ever since 2012, PCS has gone wild, it's not different from the old days, just like the old ordinal system when you put the skaters you like on first. Judges like someone better, so despite the flaws, they give that one extremely high PCS.
    Scoring system will never be transparent at this rate. It have that feeling. That's the reason a world record means nothing to me at all. Scores are meaningless at this point. It's the placement that matters the most.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    There is something that I have thought for a while but couldn't find the right words to explain. It seems to me that CoP these days and 6.0 system are some how just the same.
    Ever since 2012, PCS has gone wild, it's not different from the old days, just like the old ordinal system when you put the skaters you like on first. Judges like someone better, so despite the flaws, they give that one extremely high PCS.
    Scoring system will never be transparent at this rate. It have that feeling. That's the reason a world record means nothing to me at all. Scores are meaningless at this point. It's the placement that matters the most.
    I think one distinguishing feature is that at least artistry is now split up into various categories so we can see how judges assess a skater's transitions/skating skills/etc., instead of artistry being lumped into a subjective score that could be high or low on a judge's whim.

  8. #53
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think one distinguishing feature is that at least artistry is now split up into various categories so we can see how judges assess a skater's transitions/skating skills/etc., instead of artistry being lumped into a subjective score that could be high or low on a judge's whim.
    Although…the program components SS and TR are part of the technical score, not part of the "artistic" score comprising CH, INT, and P&E. The IJS uses a 70-30 weight between technical and performance, in contrast to the 50-50 of 6.0.

  9. #54
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Although…the program components SS and TR are part of the technical score, not part of the "artistic" score comprising CH, INT, and P&E. The IJS uses a 70-30 weight between technical and performance, in contrast to the 50-50 of 6.0.
    But it was never quite 50-50. Under the old 6.0, the presentation score is the breaker when it comes to a tie. Which resulted in a win by Oksana Baiul who while a sexy little deer and swan on ice, was really a nonsense skater technically. Ultimately, figure skating is a sport, not Bolshoi theatre. Sure great artistry makes for good fan fest and TV - no issues with that in exhibitions. But for a competitive sport, I think the technical aspects should still predominate, otherwise, where will you see the push towards increasing difficulty especially among the ladies? A flashing lovely Cohen spiral done on weak edges should never be allowed to score well compared to a simpler one done on a deep secure edge (e.g. Kostner). It is probably the emphasis on technical scores that pushes skaters to consistently go for quads and 3-3s. Pity there don't seem to be any 3A ladies in the horizon with Asada's retirement.

  10. #55
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Globetrotter View Post
    Sure great artistry makes for good fan fest and TV - no issues with that in exhibitions.
    People don't want to see artistry only in exhibitions. People want to see it in competition, because that's what actually makes ice skating interesting. The exhilarating mixture of athletic necessity combined with performance. Do-or-Die while at the same time needing to move with flair and purpose to music. No other sport asks people to go out there and physically exhaust themselves while at the same time giving a full performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Globetrotter View Post
    But for a competitive sport, I think the technical aspects should still predominate, otherwise, where will you see the push towards increasing difficulty especially among the ladies?
    You will see it in people who need it to win. That's always how it works. There are the people who are the most artistic, and able to deliver high technical content, and then there are the people who aren't as good at "the second mark" and thus they add a more difficult jump to their program in order to beat the other person. That's exactly why we saw Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes coming out with multiple Triple-Triple combinations and why Slutskaya kept trying the 3Lutz+3Loop. They knew they needed it to win because they weren't as good as Kwan at other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Globetrotter View Post
    A flashing lovely Cohen spiral done on weak edges should never be allowed to score well compared to a simpler one done on a deep secure edge (e.g. Kostner).
    Definitely can't agree with that. It's impossible to do a spiral with good ice coverage in full split position on a deep edge. Just as it's impossible to do a scratch spin on a deep edge. Cohen's spiral was very much a difficult and beautiful skill worth rewarding, as are spirals on deep edges but with less extension. Kwan would be the best example for the latter case. Her extension was better than Kostner's, while showing deep and perfectly controlled edges.

  11. #56
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Globetrotter View Post
    But it was never quite 50-50. Under the old 6.0, the presentation score is the breaker when it comes to a tie.
    IIRC, presentation was the tiebreaker in the free skate but in the short program it was the tech score. Happy to stand corrected, though.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    You will see it in people who need it to win. That's always how it works. There are the people who are the most artistic, and able to deliver high technical content, and then there are the people who aren't as good at "the second mark" and thus they add a more difficult jump to their program in order to beat the other person. That's exactly why we saw Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes coming out with multiple Triple-Triple combinations and why Slutskaya kept trying the 3Lutz+3Loop. They knew they needed it to win because they weren't as good as Kwan at other things.

    But it is as should be. That's what makes sport pushing forward. Because someone is less artistic than his competitor doesn't mean he has to have technical content on his lvl, and then he is trying to use his own strong sides. If he will be good enough to make overtake on that, why he shouldn't. I saw many times comments, that this skater is soooo beatifull that he should be the winner. But no one even counts that his program technically was a much more easier than others.
    There always will be complains especially when people favourites are not winning. But it is still competition and the best overall competitor wins ( in most cases, but there always was some .... controversial wins )

  13. #58
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    That's exactly why we saw Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes coming out with multiple Triple-Triple combinations and why Slutskaya kept trying the 3Lutz+3Loop. They knew they needed it to win because they weren't as good as Kwan at other things.
    Which I tend to agree only if the scoring was based on CoP system. Under the old 6.0, there just wasn't enough room for differentiating the technical score and quality of the technical elements. It was more impressionistic which means that the artist will tend to have advantage and a simpler content done clean will be rewarded relatively better than the difficult programme. I am not sure why it seems among the men, the push was always more towards the technical but for ladies, the artistry has always been the one that catches the eye. Gender bias? Social stereotyping?

    With CoP, my biggest gripe now is the way PCS is being scored. If ISU were to adopt your proposal to have tech judges and PCS judges separate and no anonymous judging, I will be a happy camper.

  14. #59
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    PCS actually was fairly well judged before the panels were given the green light to shell out 9's to their favourites. Then you started getting 10-15 point advantages to more popular skaters, essentially nullifying any technical efforts made by "lesser" skaters.

  15. #60
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    Wow, Blades you must have had a lot of time on your hands.

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