Grace Gold - too princessy? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Grace Gold - too princessy?

SkatingByOnWelfare

Match Penalty
Joined
May 12, 2014
For a Princess who'd been cursed to sleep, Gracie showed a ton more emotional expression and range than Lipnitskaya did.

Your attempt at an ill-informed witticism above represents so much of what I find distressing about the quality of debate on these social forums. Your popularized, non-evaluating approach is, of course, the basis of the Internet free-for-all that has been declared as democratizing criticism; but from what I gathered from your pattern of behavior, all it serves is an outlet for your bubbling juvenile hostilities and grudges-- essentially it minimizes the insight, sensitivity and taste that ought to be brought into figure skating.

Now onwards, the artistic merit of emotional expression should not be judged through its spectral nature (maybe only at the insane asylums, as per the treatments for schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and such-like-- I have little experience in this area, so I would delve no further for I would overstep by bounds if I did, as you have done with your take on Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty with its reductive structure that was prefabricated from a smattering of summary) nor should it be judged through its facile quantitative easing (For example, "Ooh, she is so eclectic in her taste...for mediocrity! All those run-of-the-mill gestures-- she sure was a good study! What an artiste." or "Oooh, her movements are so diverse! Who cares about the economy of aesthetics-- when you've got that kind of disorientating artifice to display! I will learn to love this, I tell ya that much!" or "Sure it's an introverted dramatic piece from Rach, but I still want her to shake her hips for quantifiable audience participation points! What range! It's like Ingrid Bergman was on her way to perform some transgression at the end of The Bells of St. Mary's, out of the blue. What eclecticism that lady wrought! even at the expense of the program's narrative integrity! That's some tangible artistry right there, buddy!"
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Shall I correct you? More like, while his Tron program was enormous fun and a great program, snobby skating fans all over the internet were having a meltdown and claiming Max's win was the worst thing to happen to skating ever (especially when the video of his program went viral among the Tron fandom), and the USFSA were busy browbeating Max to try and skate more like their precious Abbott. Max loved Carmen since he was 8 but made the huge mistake of going to Lori Nichol, who busily tried to turn him into someone he wasn't.

The next result: Max's actual own style was more like Tron, but too many people hated it. He went out of the comfort zone to try and make the haters happy, and now they hate him even more. Sigh.

Max's Tron program was playing to his strength of being technical, staccato, and not particularly elegant or refined. As much as some hated him for it, they were probably skating purists who hoped he'd do another Turandot or Swan Lake, and we saw when he did Carmen, it totally backfired. Like Elvis, Max's strength doesn't lie in classical programs even though that's what the judges typically like. It's a classic example of sacrificing artistry for trying something new. Even if Aaron never wins another competition, I'll always remember him for having a SP that actually stood out and was unconventional.

I agree that Carmen was a bust. You can almost imagine the conversations between him and Lori being like "This is what you'll wear. This is how you'll move". A leopard can't change its spots so to speak. I think he has more in him than being another Joubert/Elvis, and last season was an interesting test, but it's obvious that he'll never be one of the most artistic male skaters, so really he should stop pretending to be, IMO. At the end of the day, you skate for yourself, and I firmly believe skaters shouldn't compromise that for anyone.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Your attempt at an ill-informed witticism above represents so much of what I find distressing about the quality of debate on these social forums. Your popularized, non-evaluating approach is, of course, the basis of the Internet free-for-all that has been declared as democratizing criticism; but from what I gathered from your pattern of behavior, all it serves is an outlet for your bubbling juvenile hostilities and grudges-- essentially it minimizes the insight, sensitivity and taste that ought to be brought into figure skating.

Now onwards, the artistic merit of emotional expression should not be judged through its spectral nature (maybe only at the insane asylums, as per the treatments for schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and such-like-- I have little experience in this area, so I would delve no further for I would overstep by bounds if I did, as you have done with your take on Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty with its reductive structure that was prefabricated from a smattering of summary) nor should it be judged through its facile quantitative easing (For example, "Ooh, she is so eclectic in her taste...for mediocrity! All those run-of-the-mill gestures-- she sure was a good study! What an artiste." or "Oooh, her movements are so diverse! Who cares about the economy of aesthetics-- when you've got that kind of disorientating artifice to display! I will learn to love this, I tell ya that much!" or "Sure it's an introverted dramatic piece from Rach, but I still want her to shake her hips for quantifiable audience participation points! What range! It's like Ingrid Bergman was on her way to perform some transgression at the end of The Bells of St. Mary's, out of the blue. What eclecticism that lady wrought! even at the expense of the program's narrative integrity! That's some tangible artistry right there, buddy!"

OMG, AllYouDoIsTalk is back for more. :laugh: Sorry about Julia's 5th place in Sochi. At least we can laugh at sky_fly's fanaticism of Gold, but I can only pity yours of Julia. :cry:
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Before discussing the actual subject of the thread, I just wanted to respond to this...

Shall I correct you? More like, while his Tron program was enormous fun and a great program, snobby skating fans all over the internet were having a meltdown and claiming Max's win was the worst thing to happen to skating ever (especially when the video of his program went viral among the Tron fandom), and the USFSA were busy browbeating Max to try and skate more like their precious Abbott. Max loved Carmen since he was 8 but made the huge mistake of going to Lori Nichol, who busily tried to turn him into someone he wasn't.

The next result: Max's actual own style was more like Tron, but too many people hated it. He went out of the comfort zone to try and make the haters happy, and now they hate him even more. Sigh.
If Max Aaron or any other competitive skater is making career decisions based on what anonymous internet posters are saying - and not even necessarily a majority of them! - then that's seriously idiotic. The USFSA doesn't seem to know what to do with skaters who don't fit the mode du jour, and I agree with you that this probably affected Aaron. But if you think that the USFSA is enamored with Abbott - ha! Certainly not. The problem is that Aaron doesn't seem to have a good grasp of his strengths and weaknesses and tried to turn himself into a skater he couldn't be (because heaven forbid someone compare him to Brian Joubert). His SP was so clearly an attempt to emulate Takahashi, and Carmen was wrong for him. It's not Nichol's fault, it's his for choosing a piece of music that has been done to death and requires a fresh approach and some serious artistic ability to come up with anything remotely interesting. Wanting to skate to something doesn't mean you should, and admiring a skater doesn't mean you can be like that skater. Instead of trying to come up with programs that would challenge him but allow him to develop his own style, he tried to transform himself into a different skater.

There are plenty of skaters who have managed good careers while still developing their own styles or doing concepts and programs that aren't the usual thing. Which brings me back to Gracie Gold: is she too princessy? No, not at all - which is exactly why her packaging is completely wrong. Gracie comes across as young (obviously), fun, and maybe a bit quirky. She's got a lot of strengths technically. Her programs this past season showed very little of what she could be and tried to recast her as something she's not, and it was dull. I blame Frank Carroll. Who should Gracie look to for inspiration? Well, I can think of a beautiful blond who could have spent her career playing the pretty princess but who's opted for a far more interesting range of programs (and costumes). Gracie Gold and Kiira Korpi obviously have different strengths and weaknesses, but the bottom line is that just because someone can be styled as a pretty princess doesn't mean it's the best thing for her as a skater and performer.

And Kiira would have never worn her hair in such an awful bun.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I think we need to give Gracie some slack with all this criticism. Remember, she was only skating with Frank Carroll for FOUR MONTHS prior to Nationals. "He" inherited her programs. I'm very curious to see what he does with her next year. You may see a whole new Gracie when it comes to costuming, music, choreography. Four months before Nationals is no time to bring in a new program.

Buttercup - I was with you for your entire post until you got down to "I blame Frank Carroll." Blame him next year if you feel the same way but as far as I'm concerned he wasn't with Gracie long enough to change anything other than to give her some jumping tips (which helped her, I might add)
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Buttercup - I was with you for your entire post until you got down to "I blame Frank Carroll." Blame him next year if you feel the same way but as far as I'm concerned he wasn't with Gracie long enough to change anything other than to give her some jumping tips (which helped her, I might add)
You're right, the programs and the bun are not really Carroll's fault ;) He could have encouraged or at least suggested some changes, but I can understand not wanting to go there in an Olympic season. Carolina Kostner managed a mid-season change, but Kostner is a talented and experienced performer who's been through the Olympic pressure before, and Gracie's situation doesn't really compare.

Something could have still been done about Gold's styling, though.
 

Brenda

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Well, I can think of a beautiful blond who could have spent her career playing the pretty princess but who's opted for a far more interesting range of programs (and costumes). Gracie Gold and Kiira Korpi obviously have different strengths and weaknesses, but the bottom line is that just because someone can be styled as a pretty princess doesn't mean it's the best thing for her as a skater and performer.

What I love about Kiira is not necessarily her range of programs, but rather that on the occasions when she does do princessy, she really masters it. On the surface, Kiira's "The Girl With The Flaxen Hair" SP is as pretty-princessy as it gets, but because Kiira really commits to every nuance of the choreography, finishing every move and paying attention to the aesthetic value of her positions, it feels like a complete program. To boil it down to a "pretty princess" label would be doing Kiira a disservice. Kiira could have relied on her looks and blonde hair to sell you on how beautiful Debussy's music is, but IMO it is her grace and finish (and that beautiful flying sit spin) that do most of the work, and her beauty/dress only enhance the skating. On the other hand, with Gracie it often feels like the hair, the dress, the lipstick, etc are all working overtime to mask the mismatch between airplane arms and Tchaikovsky.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
I don't think she was underscored, just that the Russian was overscored. Surprise!


possible, but does not change the substance of

You meant "she," right? As in, Gracie may or may not be many things but she's definitely a "she!" :) (I guess there are other remote possibilities but those probably shouldn't be discussed on a PG-13 website... :biggrin:)
What a mistake!:eek:: I probabaly used the letter "s".... but didn't notice that is missing.. Yes, I agree she is definitely " she".

Here's Gracie's dog. He likes Miracle Whip. Whose dog is more princess-y, Julia's or Gracie's?

https://vine.co/v/h2h7rJ3eKLL


for me Julia's puppy is more princessy. :)
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
If Max Aaron or any other competitive skater is making career decisions based on what anonymous internet posters are saying - and not even necessarily a majority of them! - then that's seriously idiotic. The USFSA doesn't seem to know what to do with skaters who don't fit the mode du jour, and I agree with you that this probably affected Aaron. But if you think that the USFSA is enamored with Abbott - ha! Certainly not. The problem is that Aaron doesn't seem to have a good grasp of his strengths and weaknesses and tried to turn himself into a skater he couldn't be (because heaven forbid someone compare him to Brian Joubert). His SP was so clearly an attempt to emulate Takahashi, and Carmen was wrong for him. It's not Nichol's fault, it's his for choosing a piece of music that has been done to death and requires a fresh approach and some serious artistic ability to come up with anything remotely interesting. Wanting to skate to something doesn't mean you should, and admiring a skater doesn't mean you can be like that skater. Instead of trying to come up with programs that would challenge him but allow him to develop his own style, he tried to transform himself into a different skater.

Max was told by the USFSA as young as 14 that he would "never get anywhere" with his style and he should skate more like Abbott. Even when he'd just finished 7th at his first worlds the USFSA were telling him he was wrong. Here was a National Champion being told to change his style - because snobs don't like it. I'd love to see Max do nothing more than flip his haters the bird.

If Max tried to transform himself into a different skater, it was at the USFSA's direction, not his.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Karne - I think Max has an uphill battle. I don't expect to see him at the top of the podium again. He's always been inconsistent, never had much style (his own or any others) and I honestly feel like his win at Nats was a fluke. Nice guy. Superb athlete, but just not many people's "cuppa" as it were. I think the death knell was skating to Carmen. Horrible choice, even though it was his choice. He just reminds me so much of Elvis Stojko. Yes Elvis had success under the 6.0 judging system. Yes he won Worlds - again, under the 6.0 judging system. It just takes more than jumps now. As long as his focus is on his jumps and landing quads, yada! yada! It aint' going to happen for him.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Karne - I think Max has an uphill battle. I don't expect to see him at the top of the podium again. He's always been inconsistent, never had much style (his own or any others) and I honestly feel like his win at Nats was a fluke. Nice guy. Superb athlete, but just not many people's "cuppa" as it were. I think the death knell was skating to Carmen. Horrible choice, even though it was his choice. He just reminds me so much of Elvis Stojko. Yes Elvis had success under the 6.0 judging system. Yes he won Worlds - again, under the 6.0 judging system. It just takes more than jumps now. As long as his focus is on his jumps and landing quads, yada! yada! It aint' going to happen for him.

Pffffft. That's a foolish prediction. He still has the jumps to compete and as long as he ditches Lori Nichol and flips off the USFSA and skates like himself he'll be fine.

The mistake wasn't skating to Carmen, because he wanted to skate to the parts people don't normally use. The problem was Nichol. She obviously couldn't be bothered putting in an effort for him and just recycled Lysacek's Carmen for him.

Max is a fine skater and his own style is fine. The snobs can wish for him to disappear all they want but he won't. And he'll stand on the top step again. Just wait and see.

Think about it: even with his "terrible" programs and skates this year, he was still the bronze medallist at Nationals - losing only to a kid who blew the roof off the joint and an overmarked favourite. And he was a far more sportsmanlike bronze medallist than the one the year before.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Max was told by the USFSA as young as 14 that he would "never get anywhere" with his style and he should skate more like Abbott. Even when he'd just finished 7th at his first worlds the USFSA were telling him he was wrong. Here was a National Champion being told to change his style - because snobs don't like it. I'd love to see Max do nothing more than flip his haters the bird.

If Max tried to transform himself into a different skater, it was at the USFSA's direction, not his.
1. Not everyone who is not enamored with Max Aaron's skating is a snob who can't appreciate diverse styles.
2. If the USFSA is so into Abbott, they've had a funny way of showing it.
3. You make a lot of claims for which you provide no sources. Max was told at 14 to skate like Abbott?! Who was a nobody then? Not like USFSA poster boy Evan Lysacek or national champion Johnny Weir? Or Olympic champion Evgeni Plushenko? That's not even remotely believable.
4. Max Aaron is old enough to take responsibility for his career and choices. I knew when I saw that "oh no, I've been mistaken for a European" interview that he was taking the wrong approach and would pay for it. Try to be a better skater, try to improve your range as a performer, but don't try to be a skater you are not.
5. All this has nothing to do with Gracie Gold, her programs or her packaging, except the last part of my fourth point.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
I would like to see Lip also have more attitude in her programs, although it might not suit her at this point, and like Gold she should play to what's working for her.

I fully agree.


I don't know about "range" - truth is few people do a variety of genres well. Very few.

I agree with this as well. Abbott, Chan, Costner, even Kim in some of her LP's looks the same, and they are all praised.
p.s.I mean their interpretation and style looks the same, of course they are the same persona. :biggrin:
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Anyway, on topic, Gracie's not a Princess, she's a Queen.

Queen Elsa, to be exact.

:laugh:

PS: For those interested, when you type the words "Gracie Gold" into Youtube, the second suggestion in the drop-down box is "Gracie Gold Let it Go" (just after "Sochi 2014"). So this has potential as a marketing tool.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
3. You make a lot of claims for which you provide no sources. Max was told at 14 to skate like Abbott?! Who was a nobody then? Not like USFSA poster boy Evan Lysacek or national champion Johnny Weir? Or Olympic champion Evgeni Plushenko? That's not even remotely believable.

Actually, it could be true. Abbott was US junior champion in 2005. Max Aaron, at 14, was a promising (if undersized) hockey player in the USA youth development league. (According to Wikipedia he led the league in both goals and penalty minutes for two straight years. :) ) He dabbled a little in figure skating to develop his hockey skills. I can imagine that his figure skating coach might have told him, you'll never be any good at figure skating until you skate more like that kid Jeremy Abbott and less like Godzilla.

Later Aaron moved to Colorado Springs to train alongside Abbott under coach Tom Z.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Actually, it could be true. Abbott was US junior champion in 2005. Max Aaron, at 14, was a promising (if undersized) hockey player in the USA youth development league. (According to Wikipedia he led the league in both goals and penalty minutes for two straight years. :) ) He dabbled a little in figure skating to develop his hockey skills. I can imagine that his figure skating coach might have told him, you'll never be any good at figure skating until you skate more like that kid Jeremy Abbott and less like Godzilla.

Later Aaron moved to Colorado Springs to train alongside Abbott under coach Tom Z.
I think you're playing devil's advocate, MM. Abbott may have won junior Nats in 2005, but in 2006 he didn't even make it to Nationals at the age of 20, while Lysacek was the top US man internationally. Abbott barely even got international assignments and that style of skating in general was not in vogue and arguably wouldn't become so until Buttle won 2008 Worlds (or Matt Savoie would fared much better in Torino). I highly doubt any up and coming skater would have been encouraged to pattern himself after Abbott by anyone from the USFSA. As an example at the rink, maybe. But at the time the top skaters definitely weren't in the Abbott mold and surely Aaron could have seen that..
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
... And he'll stand on the top step again. Just wait and see.

Think about it: even with his "terrible" programs and skates this year, he was still the bronze medallist at Nationals ...

:agree: I too am keeping the faith that the best is yet to come from Max Aaron. :yes:

Adding to karne's point, Max achieved four PBs this season:
- At Worlds 2014, SP overall score + SP PCS.
- At Skate America 2013 for his Carmen program, FS overall score + FS TES.
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_pb_00010531.htm

.... Max Aaron, at 14, was a promising (if undersized) hockey player in the USA youth development league. (According to Wikipedia he led the league in both goals and penalty minutes for two straight years. :) ) He dabbled a little in figure skating to develop his hockey skills.

And for the record:
Max won the national Juvenile figure skating championship at age 13 in 2005 -- so "dabbled a little" would be an understatement, IMHO.
http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/profile/max_aaron
In his boyhood, he was serious about both hockey and figure skating.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Why are we talking about Max on a Gracie thread? Start a Max thread if you want to talk about him.
 
Top