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Thread: Why do Skaters Flutz? And/Or What Makes Edge Jumps so Difficult?

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    Why do Skaters Flutz? And/Or What Makes Edge Jumps so Difficult?

    Again, I wasn't sure if to post this at Stupid Questions thread.

    If there is like, only one plain and simple answer: mods please feel free to move these questions where they belong!

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    Holding an edge can be difficult at the best of times. Trying to do it while making the rest of your body do other things, some that involve pulling your weight away from the edge, can make it even harder.

    The main reason for a flutz is that the jump is a counter-rotation. That is, you rotate away from the edge the jump is on. That's why so many people go on flat or change edge, because the weight moves away from the edge. It's hard. Trying to get the right upward spring AND keep the edge AND rotate is extremely difficult.

    Likewise, some people (like me) have difficulty holding the inside edge before a flip or Salchow because they feel like they are falling off the edge. (This is mainly a problem with the Salchow, not the flip, for me.) When the weight is over the blade, it feels difficult to hold the inside edge, and flattens out; when the weight is shifted, I fall off my inside edge onto the other foot.

    As to the edge jumps, I have addressed the Salchow; my problems with the loop stem from a lack of power in my jumping leg, which is probably just me. I haven't tried an Axel yet so I can't tell you what that feels like, but I imagine taking off forward is quite the mental block for some.

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    ^
    Sounds like something hard to imagine for a no-skater.
    I have to admit that my rare attempts to move on ice with (ice hockey) blades attached have never gone that far as deliberately holding an edge.

    How advanced skating skills does it actually take to do this very basic thing?

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    Edge control is a very delicate and to be able to do turns with deep edges is very hard. Many top ice dancers excel at this, but in other disciplines only some top skaters demonstrate this skill and even if they are good at jumps, they don't necessarily have good edge control.

    Lutz is particularly difficult because, when you are holding an edge, you have to put your weight to the edge's side which makes you turn to that rotation naturally. Let's say you are are a righty. Lutz requires you to be on the outside edge on the left leg, which means you have to put your weight on the left side, and the force will try to make your body turn right because you'd be moving backwards. But you need to jump and rotate to the left. Many skaters have a hard time keeping the outside edge for this reason at the moment of jumping.

    So far Yuna Kim is the only female skater that I've seen that does the most stable-looking lutz and I've never seen her flutzing. Her technique and control is wonderful because she goes into outside edge just right before she jumps.

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    🌸🐱❄🐱❄🐱🌸 jennyanydots's Avatar
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    Like karne said it's the counter-rotation. For a skater who jumps counter-clockwise, the entry left back outside edge goes in a clockwise direction. You have to then pick, jump up and then rotate in the other direction. Some beginners actually get confused and jump the wrong direction. It feels natural to change to an inside edge before taking off in order to cheat the counter-rotation. Skaters who muscle jumps or are dependent on prerotation will have a greater tendency to flutz. Not as many men flutz as compared to women because they are stronger and can keep the entry edge more stable. Edge jumps aren't neccessarily more difficult but they require a certain degree of edge control that beginners may initially find difficult to develop. Some skaters are better at toe jumps, some edge jumps.

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    And....poor technique. When a skater first starts attempting these jumps is the time to correct the issues. Unfortunately they oftentimes don't have coaches that are adept at spotting how to "fix" the flutz - or falling off the edge - and they develop bad habits. Body memory is a hard thing to overcome sometimes....especially in competition!

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    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirMo View Post
    So far Yuna Kim is the only female skater that I've seen that does the most stable-looking lutz and I've never seen her flutzing. Her technique and control is wonderful because she goes into outside edge just right before she jumps.
    Park, the other Korean girl, seems to have a very good technique as well. I think she is really good.

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    The thing about a lutz is, to fully rotate it on a true outside edge, you need a strong vault from the toe pick. Most female skaters lack this vault, so they have to switch on their inside edge to get their rotation going. If you see most men do a lutz, they pick and go up into the air and then start their rotation, this is what makes the lutz really hard to execute well, because there's the temptation to start the rotation (or rather, counter-rotation to the outside edge) early to ensure you'll rotate the jump. Some of the best lutzers like Ando and Harding, and Ito (and of course Kim), get that initial spring so they don't NEED to switch onto an inside edge to start generating the rotation. They can simply vault into the air and then get into the rotation, which is the proper way to execute a lutz.

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    Keeper of the Kweens OGM. MK's Winter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    Park, the other Korean girl, seems to have a very good technique as well. I think she is really good.
    I was watching 96 Worlds and 98 US Nationals last night simply because they were great competitions. Watching Worlds and it could be seen on replay, Michelle Kwan had a really beautiful Lutz. She had a great reach with her free leg and went in on a deep outside edge. Michelle and Yuna also have a very straight back position going into their lutzes, which has to help the control factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK's Winter View Post
    I was watching 96 Worlds and 98 US Nationals last night simply because they were great competitions. Watching Worlds and it could be seen on replay, Michelle Kwan had a really beautiful Lutz. She had a great reach with her free leg and went in on a deep outside edge. Michelle and Yuna also have a very straight back position going into their lutzes, which has to help the control factor.
    Sorry, I know you're an MK fan (I'm a huge MK fan too), but Kwan flutzes quite often. It's not a severe as other skaters, but she transfers onto her inside edge at the last second and certainly doesn't maintain the outside edge that Kim and other true lutzers have.

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    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The thing about a lutz is, to fully rotate it on a true outside edge, you need a strong vault from the toe pick. Most female skaters lack this vault, so they have to switch on their inside edge to get their rotation going. If you see most men do a lutz, they pick and go up into the air and then start their rotation, this is what makes the lutz really hard to execute well, because there's the temptation to start the rotation (or rather, counter-rotation to the outside edge) early to ensure you'll rotate the jump. Some of the best lutzers like Ando and Harding, and Ito (and of course Kim), get that initial spring so they don't NEED to switch onto an inside edge to start generating the rotation. They can simply vault into the air and then get into the rotation, which is the proper way to execute a lutz.
    How many points do you lose with the flutz?

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    If the judging panel is skewed, you don't lose any points.

    If not, a mandatory -1 or -2 GOE must be applied over the initial GOE given depending on the severity of the flutz.

    However next season onwards, the judging panel may penalize by giving a 70% base value on a fully rotated flutz (ie 4.2 base value iirc) and mandatory final GOE in the minuses after penalizing with -2 to -3 GOE. Unclear edge take off will be penalized as explained earlier.

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    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    How many points do you lose with the flutz?
    It depends. A severe wrong edge is a -2 or -3 GOE and the final GOE awarded has to be negative.

    A unclear edge takeoff is only a -1 or -2 GOE subtracted from any positive GOE earned on a jump/combo. The final GOE is not required to be negative for minor flutzes. In theory you could flutz a combo and earn +3 GOE before the deduction and still finish the jump with +2 GOE. I've looked at a lot of protocols this year and I've never seen any actual (e) call with a positive GOE. It should be noted that a flutz doesn't neccasarily even show up on the protocols. By that I mean the tech panel can call a flutz and not put an (e) on the scoresheet. So it's possible they call a 3ltz-3t but put (no sign) on the protocols and the jump earns +1 and no one knows any deduction happened but in fact it may have and that jump could have been a +2 since (no sign) calls are simply a -1 reduction to GOE and NOT required to be negative. (This confuses me to no end )

    We can't forget that the final scores per element are an average of seven judges so you'll see flutzes often awarded -.30 or -.60 on the protocols. Factored by 7.

    http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14...hing%20GOE.pdf
    The third page here describes all deductions and which ones are required to have a negative GOE and the ones that can still be positive in the end.

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    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarR View Post
    If the judging panel is skewed, you don't lose any points.
    If not, a mandatory -1 or -2 GOE must be applied over the initial GOE given depending on the severity of the flutz. However next season onwards, the judging panel may penalize by giving a 70% base value on a fully rotated flutz (ie 4.2 base value iirc).
    Not all flutzes are required to negative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Not all flutzes are required to negative.
    Yup I meant it that way. -1 to -2 on the previous GOE awarded.

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