Why do Skaters Flutz? And/Or What Makes Edge Jumps so Difficult? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Why do Skaters Flutz? And/Or What Makes Edge Jumps so Difficult?

DarR

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
It depends. A severe wrong edge is a -2 or -3 GOE and the final GOE awarded has to be negative.

A unclear edge takeoff is only a -1 or -2 GOE subtracted from any positive GOE earned on a jump/combo. The final GOE is not required to be negative for minor flutzes. In theory you could flutz a combo and earn +3 GOE before the deduction and still finish the jump with +2 GOE. I've looked at a lot of protocols this year and I've never seen any actual (e) call with a positive GOE. It should be noted that a flutz doesn't neccasarily even show up on the protocols. By that I mean the tech panel can call a flutz and not put an (e) on the scoresheet. So it's possible they call a 3ltz-3t but put (no sign) on the protocols and the jump earns +1 and no one knows any deduction happened but in fact it may have and that jump could have been a +2 since (no sign) calls are simply a -1 reduction to GOE and NOT required to be negative. (This confuses me to no end :bang: )
We can't forget that the final scores per element are an average of seven judges so you'll see flutzes often awarded -.30 or -.60 on the protocols. Factored by 7.

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf
The third page here describes all deductions and which ones are required to have a negative GOE and the ones that can still be positive in the end.

I'm sorry I know you're a Julia fan, and this is the judges fault and not hers just to make it clear, but she was given a +1 by a certain judge on the 3lz-2t at sochi during her fs with an e call. But it seems an e call last season might also mean an unclear edge take off.. So confusing.
 

DarR

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
She was given a -.30 for that combo.

But a judge gave her a +1, which is wrong, unless it was her/his genuine mistake if Julia was penalized with severe wrong edge take off. It isn't clear by current standards but with the e and ! call next season it should be clearer to us on whether a flutz was severe or unclear!
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
He/she obviously loved every other aspect of that jump. The (e) call is not required to be negative. Look at the GOE guidelines. For some reason (e) does not mean it was severe:bang: She got some 0's too so obviously they called it as not severe and let's be honest...fan or no fan..,saying her edge calls are close is fair. It's usually at least close and never egregious .

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf

Page 3. The (e) call appears on both sides. Required and not required negative GOE. It is not an indicator that a jump needs to be negative. Very confusing.
 

DarR

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
He/she obviously loved every other aspect of that jump. The (e) call is not required to be negative. Look at the GOE guidelines. For some reason (e) does not mean it was severe:bang: She got some 0's too so obviously they called it as not severe and let's be honest...fan or no fan..,saying her edge calls are close is fair. It's usually at least close and never egregious .

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf

Page 3. The (e) call appears on both sides. Required and not required negative GOE. It is not an indicator that a jump needs to be negative. Very confusing.

I do agree Julia's lutz has an unclear edge take off. Thankfully next season they have reintroduced ! for unclear take offs.
 

Anna K.

Medalist
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
So, what's your verdict? Is having improper lutz better than having no lutz?

Because it seems that this is what the current scoring system says (correct me if I'm wrong).
 

LuisRollerArg

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 29, 2013
lutzes stars:
Miki Ando (I think she is the best!)
Shizuka Arakawa
Yuna Kim
Liza Tuktamysheva
So Youn Park
Carolina Kostner
Valentina Marchei
Joshi Helgesson
 

sunnystars

#teamotherskaters
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
One question!

With the recent changes of deductions on wrong edges, how can Mao or Kanako (or other chronic flutzers/lippers) 'evade' or 'outsmart' those calls? any jump layout ideas?

Just being worried for them....:slink:
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Butyrskaya has an amazing lutz

Hmm agree. Almost forgotten Maria Butyrskaya. She is in my memory the only Russian who consistently performs a true Lutz and Flip without edge errors although her nerves often gets the better of her especially on that flip! Even the great Slutskaya had a mild flutz like her old rival Kwan. It is scary that so few of the current female skaters have complete jumps without edge errors - only Yuna, Caro and Tuktamysheva comes to mind and perhaps SoYoun Park, Polina Edmunds. Flutzers = Yulia Lip, Zijun Li, Asada, Kanako Murakami, Wagner; Lippers = A Pogo, Gold, Radionova. When it comes to missing a triple jump, the triple loop seems to be the one lacking in the arsenal (Marchei, Yuna) although in my memory, Russian ladies tend to be great at those big triple loops e.g. Butyrskaya, Slutskaya (love the 3 turn entrance), Radionova. After Caro retires, I wonder which skater (both male or female) will be able to perform that triple loop after the inside 3 turns - none I can think of.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So, what's your verdict? Is having improper lutz better than having no lutz?

Because it seems that this is what the current scoring system says (correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes. And although it wasn't codified in the same way, many judges may have operated in the same belief under 6.0 scoring -- especially in the post-figures era when doing as many triples as possible, of all varieties if possible, was highly rewarded.

Now, what do we think. Should a proper double lutz be worth as much or more as a triple flutz?
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
With the recent changes of deductions on wrong edges, how can Mao or Kanako (or other chronic flutzers/lippers) 'evade' or 'outsmart' those calls? any jump layout ideas?

Just being worried for them....:slink:
With Mao it is not really an issue, her flutz is one of the most obvious ones out there but she can either keep doing it and take the hit or just leave it out of her programs. In which case she still has 7 triples. Other flutzers lose out more but we have an OGM with an obvious flutz. Just do what she did and limit it to one in the LP, again not a real issue unless your other triples are lacking as well.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
With Mao it is not really an issue, her flutz is one of the most obvious ones out there but she can either keep doing it and take the hit or just leave it out of her programs. In which case she still has 7 triples. Other flutzers lose out more but we have an OGM with an obvious flutz. Just do what she did and limit it to one in the LP, again not a real issue unless your other triples are lacking as well.

this. who cares about the flutz.. you can still win an olympic gold medal even if you flutz..
 
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