Why do Skaters Flutz? And/Or What Makes Edge Jumps so Difficult?

cohen-esque · May 15, 2014

gkelly said:
What might change in two years is that tech panels will call blatant flutzes as flips, and blatant "lips" as lutzes. But that is still in discussion and might not come to pass.

This would only make any kind of sense with the lutz, specifically. Otherwise, it's a essentially a big reward for a bad mistake. A blatant lip would get called as a lutz- and be worth more points than a clean flip.

Bartek · May 15, 2014

JayW said:
Sometimes she does flutz, sometimes she doesn't. But either way, her f/lutz is beautiful to watch. Listen to 98 national, Dick Button's commentary, "...slightest turnover..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk

I'm sorry but Michelle ALWAYS flutzed. There was a discussion about this issue some time ago and now I see again that somebody compares Michelle's flutz with a true lutz of Yu-Na's. I know that now plenty of users will claim that I don't know what i'm talking about etc., after all Michelle is the greatest skater ever etc. People, remember this: every skater has some flaws. Although Michelle had manifold wonderful qualities, the lutz jump is not one of them. She flutzed EVERY single time she performed the jump and the video you've provided us with shows very clearly that she did not stay on the outside edge. Instead, she took off from slight inside edge. The fact that Dick said something else does not mean it was the case either. Again, the video clearly shows the change of the edge.

karne · May 15, 2014

sunny_stars said:
One question!

With the recent changes of deductions on wrong edges, how can Mao or Kanako (or other chronic flutzers/lippers) 'evade' or 'outsmart' those calls? any jump layout ideas?

Just being worried for them....

Or they could actually try a novel idea of FIXING their problem?

The attitude of "how to evade or outsmart" these calls is absolutely the wrong one. At the end of the day a flutz or lip is WRONG TECHNIQUE and they absolutely should be dinged for it if they're doing it. Maybe that'll encourage them to fix this.

I just can't understand this attitude. It's like Mirai fans who hope for a lenient tech caller. No, you don't want a lenient tech caller, you want a hard one, so that she knows the problem hasn't magically gone away.

BlackPack said:
Men flutz too, even the beloved Jason Brown. A very slight flutz but it's there.

Jason is a good example, though, of how hard work can improve to gradually fix a problem. A few seasons ago his flutz was so bad I would cringe every time he took off (and 'e's littered his scoresheets). Now, it's a proper edge most of the time, though from time to time he still rocks back over, usually when in a nerve-racking situation. I wonder if an increase in muscle strength has helped?

sunnystars · May 15, 2014

karne said:
Or they could actually try a novel idea of FIXING their problem?

The attitude of "how to evade or outsmart" these calls is absolutely the wrong one. At the end of the day a flutz or lip is WRONG TECHNIQUE and they absolutely should be dinged for it if they're doing it. Maybe that'll encourage them to fix this.

I just can't understand this attitude. It's like Mirai fans who hope for a lenient tech caller. No, you don't want a lenient tech caller, you want a hard one, so that she knows the problem hasn't magically gone away.

Egads. I guess I should've trusted my instincts and edited my question before I slept. I did not mean to imply on hoping for lenient calls. I definitely agree with you with the strictness. Skaters should be deducted with their mistakes. But the things is, the way they are implementing these deductions now is like a slap on the face for chronic flutzers/lippers. That's why I was worried for both Mao and Kanako, but mostly Kanako. I was actually thinking more on the strategic side as in planning possible jump layouts.

Now I have another question:

How can one improve their jump technique for lutzes and flips especially if they have edge problems on those jumps?

Alba · May 15, 2014

karne said:
The attitude of "how to evade or outsmart" these calls is absolutely the wrong one. At the end of the day a flutz or lip is WRONG TECHNIQUE and they absolutely should be dinged for it if they're doing it. Maybe that'll encourage them to fix this.

I just can't understand this attitude.

I suppose it must be very difficult to correct. Otherwise they would've fix it.

jkun · May 15, 2014

cohen-esque said:
This would only make any kind of sense with the lutz, specifically. Otherwise, it's a essentially a big reward for a bad mistake. A blatant lip would get called as a lutz- and be worth more points than a clean flip.

It makes sense for both, especially when a skater is utilizing 2 flips, and flutzes, or is utilizing 2 lutzes and lips. The flutz, or lip in either case would be considered an invalid element and would not be given any credit because they would be considered the third jump of the same type.

cohen-esque · May 15, 2014

jkun said:
It makes sense for both, especially when a skater is utilizing 2 flips, and flutzes, or is utilizing 2 lutzes and lips. The flutz, or lip in either case would be considered an invalid element and would not be given any credit because they would be considered the third jump of the same type.

Oh, ok. I think top skaters usually repeat either flip or lutz so you're right; they would be invalidated in that case. Didn't really think about Zayak. I guess a single flip/lutz with the different jump in combination might still get that extra point .70 but I'm not sure if everything would align for that to happen much.

Although it really makes me cringe everytime I look at protocols and see that (*) asterisk

Ladskater · May 16, 2014

The answer is actually quite simple, back in the day when figures were a mandatory part of figure skating, skaters learned about edge control. Ice dancers of course, are well taught about edge control. However, I think a lot of skaters now are a little sloppy when it comes to this aspect of their skating skills. Edge jumps are tricky and unless done correctly it is easy to form bad habits. A skater may take off into the edge jump thinking they are executing it properly but may end up doing a "flutz" instead. It also helps if the skater really concentrates.

Mathman · May 16, 2014

Can the original poster clarify something for me about the title of this thread? Is this two separate questions, one about take-off edges on toe-jumps (Lutz and flip), and one about "edge jumps" like the loop and Salchow?

Anna K. · May 17, 2014

Mathman said:
Can the original poster clarify something for me about the title of this thread? Is this two separate questions, one about take-off edges on toe-jumps (Lutz and flip), and one about "edge jumps" like the loop and Salchow?

Nope, I’m afraid the original poster can’t :no: It already stands as two separate questions and it’s hard to make them any clearer.

However, if you wonder why those two questions are there in one thread, I can tell a little pre-history. You see, the original poster is a no-skater who has never went that far as edge control in personal practice, hence everything regarding edges is - ehm – let’s say, it’s new and very educational. The original poster has come across information in other threads about edges in step sequences and spins but about jumps, it’s been rather random; hence this thread. If the original poster knew what edges have to do with the quality of axels and toe-loops, he – I mean, she – would also add it to the title or to the original post gladly.
And besides, thanks to all posters for your answers! Not like I can add a lot to the discussion but it’s a very interesting read for me

Why do Skaters Flutz? And/Or What Makes Edge Jumps so Difficult?

cohen-esque

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karne

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