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Thread: Why do Skaters Flutz? And/Or What Makes Edge Jumps so Difficult?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK's Winter View Post
    I was watching 96 Worlds and 98 US Nationals last night simply because they were great competitions. Watching Worlds and it could be seen on replay, Michelle Kwan had a really beautiful Lutz. She had a great reach with her free leg and went in on a deep outside edge. Michelle and Yuna also have a very straight back position going into their lutzes, which has to help the control factor.
    Sometimes she does flutz, sometimes she doesn't. But either way, her f/lutz is beautiful to watch. Listen to 98 national, Dick Button's commentary, "...slightest turnover..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk

  2. #17
    Keeper of the Kweens OGM. MK's Winter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Sorry, I know you're an MK fan (I'm a huge MK fan too), but Kwan flutzes quite often. It's not a severe as other skaters, but she transfers onto her inside edge at the last second and certainly doesn't maintain the outside edge that Kim and other true lutzers have.
    I agree with you on respects in later in her career. Watching Salome, it was her first combination. I feel she did a true lutz when she glided in as opposed to when she started in a forward entrance. No offense taken lol bit that particular combination was really well done.

    Yuna does have an awesome lutz technique that she maintained. It's no wonder she has back problems though. As I said she has a very straight back and that is a lot of force. She covers crazy distance!

    Tonya Harding comes to mind as well. When she did land her lutz she is another one who had pretty amazing height and ice coverage.

  3. #18
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    If the judging panel is skewed, you don't lose any points.
    Well you made it seem that a flutz jump in the positives was egregious. Obviously with the (no sign) calls we're left to speculate but it's not necessarily bad judging as I thought you were implying.

  4. #19
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Butyrskaya has an amazing lutz

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Well you made it seem that a flutz jump in the positives was egregious. Obviously with the (no sign) calls we're left to speculate but it's not necessarily bad judging as I thought you were implying.
    You made a great point regarding no sign calls which didn't occur to me, but next season onwards a ! may be given on unclear edge take offs like back in 2008. However, to make a comparison, Yuna's 3lz-3t in her sp in sochi was awarded a +1.5 compared to other skaters who did a 3lz-3t with unclear edge take offs and ended up with judges giving +3s or +2s especially in the fs. Doesn't make sense to me, so I accounted it to a skewed panel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    It depends. A severe wrong edge is a -2 or -3 GOE and the final GOE awarded has to be negative.

    A unclear edge takeoff is only a -1 or -2 GOE subtracted from any positive GOE earned on a jump/combo. The final GOE is not required to be negative for minor flutzes. In theory you could flutz a combo and earn +3 GOE before the deduction and still finish the jump with +2 GOE. I've looked at a lot of protocols this year and I've never seen any actual (e) call with a positive GOE. It should be noted that a flutz doesn't neccasarily even show up on the protocols. By that I mean the tech panel can call a flutz and not put an (e) on the scoresheet. So it's possible they call a 3ltz-3t but put (no sign) on the protocols and the jump earns +1 and no one knows any deduction happened but in fact it may have and that jump could have been a +2 since (no sign) calls are simply a -1 reduction to GOE and NOT required to be negative. (This confuses me to no end )
    We can't forget that the final scores per element are an average of seven judges so you'll see flutzes often awarded -.30 or -.60 on the protocols. Factored by 7.

    http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14...hing%20GOE.pdf
    The third page here describes all deductions and which ones are required to have a negative GOE and the ones that can still be positive in the end.
    I'm sorry I know you're a Julia fan, and this is the judges fault and not hers just to make it clear, but she was given a +1 by a certain judge on the 3lz-2t at sochi during her fs with an e call. But it seems an e call last season might also mean an unclear edge take off.. So confusing.

  7. #22
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    She was given a -.30 for that combo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    She was given a -.30 for that combo.
    But a judge gave her a +1, which is wrong, unless it was her/his genuine mistake if Julia was penalized with severe wrong edge take off. It isn't clear by current standards but with the e and ! call next season it should be clearer to us on whether a flutz was severe or unclear!

  9. #24
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    He/she obviously loved every other aspect of that jump. The (e) call is not required to be negative. Look at the GOE guidelines. For some reason (e) does not mean it was severe She got some 0's too so obviously they called it as not severe and let's be honest...fan or no fan..,saying her edge calls are close is fair. It's usually at least close and never egregious .

    http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14...hing%20GOE.pdf

    Page 3. The (e) call appears on both sides. Required and not required negative GOE. It is not an indicator that a jump needs to be negative. Very confusing.

  10. #25
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    She was given a -.30 for that combo.
    What was wrong with her 3Lo and 3S here? I don't remember.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK's Winter View Post

    Tonya Harding comes to mind as well. When she did land her lutz she is another one who had pretty amazing height and ice coverage.
    Here's a comparison. IMO, Kim has much better edge control, but Harding's lutz is massive! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMu0zQtKHAU

  12. #27
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    What was wrong with her 3Lo and 3S here? I don't remember.
    Fall on 3s and step out on 3lo

  13. #28
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Fall on 3s and step out on 3lo
    Oh ok. That's why I didn't remember anymore. I clicked the delete button in my head.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    He/she obviously loved every other aspect of that jump. The (e) call is not required to be negative. Look at the GOE guidelines. For some reason (e) does not mean it was severe She got some 0's too so obviously they called it as not severe and let's be honest...fan or no fan..,saying her edge calls are close is fair. It's usually at least close and never egregious .

    http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14...hing%20GOE.pdf

    Page 3. The (e) call appears on both sides. Required and not required negative GOE. It is not an indicator that a jump needs to be negative. Very confusing.
    I do agree Julia's lutz has an unclear edge take off. Thankfully next season they have reintroduced ! for unclear take offs.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Here's a comparison. IMO, Kim has much better edge control, but Harding's lutz is massive! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMu0zQtKHAU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K23m2QUOHvY look at her edge control during slow mo replay! Exquisite!

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