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Thread: Why do Skaters Flutz? And/Or What Makes Edge Jumps so Difficult?

  1. #46
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    A triple flutz is the wrong version of a listed jump but it is still a triple jump that is harder than a loop. It should be penalized more than it was this last quad but it should still be worth something, much like a fall on a fully rotated 4T should be worth more than a 1T. As for applying Zayak rules, what if you take off on a flattish edge? If a close call makes a 6 point difference then that gives the tech panel too much power.
    Quite so, quite so.

    Still, the purists believe that they are on the side of the Angels. Angels don't flutz, they don't fall, and they have little tolerance for mortals that do.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Quite so, quite so.

    Still, the purists believe that they are on the side of the Angels. Angels don't flutz, they don't fall, and they have little tolerance for mortals that do.
    They also fly, which means that quads, quints, etc. are no problem for them. They see people who fall on quads as weak.

  3. #48
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Has any noticed this?

    JUMPS
    In the seasons 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 the Technical Panel will decide on the name Flip or Lutz jumps (F/Lz) according to the intent (preparation to the jump). Discussion will continue on calling Flip/Lutz depending on the take-off edge starting with the season 2016-2017.
    It seems the next two seasons absolutely nothing is changing.

    And this

    JUMPS

    Flip is taken-off from a backward inside edge, Lutz is taken-off from backward outside edge; Technical Panel decides on the take-off edge and indicates errors with signs “e” and “!”. In cases of serious errors (sign “e”) the base value of the jump and the GOE are reduced, final GOE is negative. In cases of smaller errors (sign “!”) the original base value stays, the GOE is reduced, however the final GOE is not restricted.
    .

    So minor flutzes will not be punished any differently while a severe one will see a BV deduction and negative GOE.

  4. #49
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    A triple flutz is the wrong version of a listed jump but it is still a triple jump that is harder than a loop. It should be penalized more than it was this last quad but it should still be worth something, much like a fall on a fully rotated 4T should be worth more than a 1T. As for applying Zayak rules, what if you take off on a flattish edge? If a close call makes a 6 point difference then that gives the tech panel too much power.

    I agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    Butyrskaya has an amazing lutz
    Yes but her landings were blah.....

  5. #50
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    This moderate to severe flutzing thing is so stupid. Either the skater is flutzing or they're not. And a jump shouldn't be reduced to 70% at the whim of a tech specialist. I was perfectly fine with the GOE hit for flutzing... as long as judges enforce it. I'm predicting a severe drop in the number of lutz attempts next year.

    3Z = 6.0 BV
    3Z(e) = 4.2 BV (and likely -GOE)
    3S = 4.2

    Why on earth would a skater even attempt a 3Z anymore when a clean 3S (which will get higher GOE than a triple flutz) will get more points.

    Seems like the ISU's mission to get true lutzes will remove the lutz altogether from competitions. Certainly we won't see as many programs with two 3Z attempts as we've seen in the past. Lipnitskaia would be better off repeating her flip or loop or salchow, which would likely get higher marks than a second 3Z that is called as a flutz.

  6. #51
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    I'm with Sam. Wrong edge is a problem, but that's no reason to downgrade it to a double. If anything should get such a harsh penalty, it's falls.

    I, too, am not enamoured with the ! vs. e thing. The difference in points is too great for what is essentially the same mistake. Better to call it the same thing, and just have varying GOE punishment depending on how severe. At least that way, it'll just be a ~1-point difference at the discretion of the judges, instead of going from a lutz to less than a salchow.

  7. #52
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    I don't think Yulia (or many others) will get hit. Hers are always close or at least called unclear. No one knows how many (no sign) edge deductions were applied to her or anyone for that matter last season. Honestly how could we? There was "no sign" It will be only (e) severe calls going forward that reduce BV not (!). That is important!!! Don't forget that the "!" sign is not an indicator of a severe flutz or even necessitates negative GOE. It appears now only a (e) will indicate negative GOE being required. I think we'll see just as many lutz jumps but we will likely see less (e) and more (!) edge calls. At least it will be more clear. Hopefully that is the aim and not to influence jump layout.

    It appears they left the door open to determine a flutz as a flip starting on 2016-17 season. Not sure how I feel about that. Maybe the Zayek rule will be modified some or else skaters will have to literally be changing their plans on the fly. Yes that would be interesting but probably will further reduce the skaters comfort and ultimately the artistic flow. It's harder to walk when your trying not to make footprints.
    Last edited by Sam-Skwantch; 05-15-2014 at 12:52 PM. Reason: (e) and (!) swap :(

  8. #53
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Why on earth would a skater even attempt a 3Z anymore when a clean 3S (which will get higher GOE than a triple flutz) will get more points.
    Well, a correctly done Lutz will still get more points than a correctly done Salchow. So a skater who has good Lutz technique will go for the higher-scoring element.

    If your Lutz is 50-50, hit or miss, then you might choose to substitute another jump rather than to roll the dice. This favors skaters who have a dependable true Lutz over those whose Lutz is a wish and a prayer.

    I don't see anything wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    It will be only (!) severe calls going forward that reduce BV not (e).
    I think it's the other way around. (e) is the severe call with reduced base value, and (!) is the not-so-severe call that is largely up to the discretion of the judges.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-15-2014 at 12:16 PM.

  9. #54
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Fixed

    I think it's the other way around. (e) is the severe call with reduced base value, and (!) is the not-so-severe call that is largely up to the discretion of the judges.
    I just posted that clarification myself earlier

    I get all excited talking jumps and GOE guidelines. I have focused on it quite extensively as I'm sure you've already noticed.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Has any noticed this?

    It seems the next two seasons absolutely nothing is changing.
    No, the change this season is that the tech panel will go back to distinguishing between severe wrong edge ("e") and unclear edge ("!"), as was the case a few years ago, and ALSO, brand new this year, there will be lower base marks as well as negative GOE for the jumps with "e" calls.

    What might change in two years is that tech panels will call blatant flutzes as flips, and blatant "lips" as lutzes. But that is still in discussion and might not come to pass.

    So minor flutzes will not be punished any differently while a severe one will see a BV deduction and negative GOE.
    Yup. And that latter is a major change this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    This moderate to severe flutzing thing is so stupid. Either the skater is flutzing or they're not.
    I disagree. There are degrees to the amount of edge change, and so it does make sense to have degrees to the amount of penalty.

    However, with the decision of the technical panel automatically lowering the base value and also automatically signalling the judges to give negative GOE even if everything else about the jump was great -- or even if the edge change was not so severe as to be apparent to the judges from their angle -- it does put a lot of power in the hands of those three officials.

    I'm predicting a severe drop in the number of lutz attempts next year.

    3Z = 6.0 BV
    3Z(e) = 4.2 BV (and likely -GOE)
    3S = 4.2

    Why on earth would a skater even attempt a 3Z anymore when a clean 3S (which will get higher GOE than a triple flutz) will get more points.
    I agree that we will likely see fewer lutz attempts in short programs.

    In free skates, skaters won't have to choose between doing a flutz and doing a salchow. Most of them will try to include both. The only change should be skaters who had been repeating the flutz and hoping for the minimum penalty, or willing to take the mandatory -GOE if they knew their edge change was blatant, now choosing to repeat a different triple instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    the "e" sign is not an indicator of a severe flutz or even necessitates negative GOE. It appears now only a (!) will indicate negative GOE being required.
    Other way around. "e" is the severe wrong edge that requires -GOE; "!" is the unclear edge that does not require -GOE.

    It appears they left the door open to determine a flutz as a flip starting on 2016-17 season.
    Yes, so it seems.

    Maybe the Zayek rule will be modified some or else skaters will have to literally be changing their plans on the fly.
    Not really on the fly, since they won't know during the performance how the tech panel called the first lutzes or flips in their programs.

    If they learn from experience in the next two years that their lutzes (or flips) almost always get "e" calls, and in early-season competitions in summer 2016 that their lutzes almost always get called as flips or vice versa, they will change their layout to include two of the jump they don't get called on and none of the other, or just one of each, and repeat loops, toe loops, and/or salchows instead. But those would be strategic choreographed changes made at home between competitions, not in the middle of a performance (which is how I understand the phrase "on the fly").

  11. #56
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Better to call it the same thing, and just have varying GOE punishment depending on how severe. At least that way, it'll just be a ~1-point difference at the discretion of the judges, instead of going from a lutz to less than a salchow.
    This sounds reasonable to me.

  12. #57
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Thank You gkelly. Your insight and clarification is always appreciated. Can you explain to me why there still exists a "no sign" edge call? It is still listed in the not required to be negative column. What is the point in having the same definition for a "no sign" and (!). I just don't understand. Why not (!) is -1 to-2 and a (e) is -2 to-3 with reduced BV and required -GOE? What is the point in a "no sign"?

    I've seen 3lz get +1 GOE and people say the judge ignored the flutz but in reality the jump may have been worth +2 and then downgraded -1 for the "no sign". It leaves room for questioning and speculation on fair judging.
    Last edited by Sam-Skwantch; 05-15-2014 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Bad wording!!

  13. #58
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    What might change in two years is that tech panels will call blatant flutzes as flips, and blatant "lips" as lutzes. But that is still in discussion and might not come to pass.
    They will have to address the problem that a bad flip (a 'lip) could end up with the same high base value as a proper Lutz.

    If they learn from experience in the next two years that their lutzes (or flips) almost always get "e" calls, and in early-season competitions in summer 2016 that their lutzes almost always get called as flips or vice versa, they will change their layout to include two of the jump they don't get called on and none of the other, or just one of each, and repeat loops, toe loops, and/or salchows instead. But those would be strategic choreographed changes made at home between competitions, not in the middle of a performance (which is how I understand the phrase "on the fly").
    The "one of each" is an interesting alternative, and the rules could be changed to encourage/require this approach. Just like a toe Wally and a toe loop are counted as the same jump, you could create a new jump category that would comprise the flip and the Lutz. A skater could do two jumps from this category, with a bonus for clearly presenting both take-off edges.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Can you explain to me why there still exists a "no sign" edge call? It is still listed in the not required to be negative column. What is the point in having the same definition for a "no sign" and (!). I just don't understand. Why not (!) is -1 to-2 and a (e) is -2 to-3 with reduced BV and required -GOE? What is the point in a "no sign"?
    I think the point is that sometimes the technical panel doesn't see an edge change, but a judge does see it. The judge is still allowed/encouraged to take a GOE reduction even if there is no call from the tech panel.

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    Simply put (to answer the question), it's the counterrotation. It's tricky to get down as a single jump, and gets exponentially trickier the more rotations you add to it.

    An example: I no longer skate. I used to be pretty good, when I was younger. I can get on the ice, after having not skated for over a year, and easily do single loops, flips, toe loops, and salchows. Doing a lutz, however, scares the pants off of me (and don't get me started on axels or double jumps! I haven't been able to do those since my first semester in college). The counterrotation feels weird, and my post-skating weight gain (about 15 lbs) makes it feel even weirder.

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