Ashley Wagner and the Olympics | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Ashley Wagner and the Olympics

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Jan 1, 2013
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Australia
Outside the US, most of the countries building their next generation by ISU guideline which is age requirement. Even though in some countries still use skills level for their national but when it come to international competition they will be under the ISU regulations. Like this year US national for example, A lot of the competitors in the Juvenile were over ten years of age. In other countries at that age, you should be in the Advanced Novice and preparing for the Junior level already. It seems most of their coaches set their eyes on the podium by using the ages and experiences advantages. In the long run, the tactic is killing these poor skaters' career in the long run.

Joshua Farris was 10 the year he was Juvenile National Champion. Jason Brown didn't even make the FS that year. (He was Juvenile Champion the next year.)

They were also among the oldest of the skaters at the 2013 Junior World Championships, where they were 1 and 2.

Doesn't seem to have hurt their career.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
As of right now the only American (ladies) I expect to be able to come out next year and attack a program is Ashley. She is the only one that exudes confidence and delivers with fire IMO. The problem is in spite of the fire and attack...she keeps fudging the landings of very important jumps. :rolleye:
So true, especially with how outright falls are comparatively (not) punished... But I refuse to give up on Ashley! She seemed really determined to keep working after Worlds, despite seeing how the judges may have dumped her for Gracie. She's in trouble if Polina and Gracie really get their act together next season, but if they flounder, Ashley looks ready to attack.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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I don't like flounder. Not on my dinner plate and not on ice!
 

Icey

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Nov 28, 2012
Her career is sputtering, but I don't think it has anything to do with Sochi. Like many she had her opportunity for a golden moment and for whatever reasons, wan't able to pull it off.
 

BusyMom

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Jan 10, 2014
Joshua Farris was 10 the year he was Juvenile National Champion. Jason Brown didn't even make the FS that year. (He was Juvenile Champion the next year.)

They were also among the oldest of the skaters at the 2013 Junior World Championships, where they were 1 and 2.

Doesn't seem to have hurt their career.
First of all, that was almost ten years ago. ISU age requirements has been changed more than once during these decade. A couple of years ago you can stay in the pre-novice until twelve but now it is under 10 years of age.

Secondly, we talk about ladies which seems to have more trouble with puberty during their teen years, more than boys as a matter of facts.
 

concorde

Medalist
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Jul 29, 2013
In 2011, USFS "upped" the Juvenile cut-off. Now it is “under age 14 as of Sept. 1 prior to the regional championships.”

For ladies, the issue is puberty and how it shifts the weight. I was told that when a girl turns 14, she should not expect to gain any more jumps. She can polish what she has in her arsenal but do not expect to add any more.

BusyMom - in response to your comment, I did not take an offense. We do not believe in sandbagging. Hence, my daughter tends to be the youngest in her group by ~2 years so we consider a "middle of the pack" finish to be a win.
 

BusyMom

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Jan 10, 2014
In 2011, USFS "upped" the Juvenile cut-off. Now it is “under age 14 as of Sept. 1 prior to the regional championships.”

For ladies, the issue is puberty and how is shifts the weight. I was told that when a girl turns 14, she should not expect to gain any more jumps. She can polish what she has in her arsenal but do not expect to add any more.

BusyMom - in response to your comment, I did not take an offense. We do not believe in sandbagging. Hence, my daughter tends to be the youngest in her group by ~2 years so we consider a "middle of the pack" finish to be a win.

Thank you for understanding. I understand your point very well. I know sometimes parents do whatever it takes for their kids. My daughter is always one of the youngest too. I more care of her score sheets than the results from the start. Her first international competition was just a couple of months after her started skating. Came last but I was over the moon for the scores. Wish you luck for your daughter's future.
 

concorde

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Jul 29, 2013
I also think USFS needs to re-think their "pipeline" process.

The current USFS system encourages "sandbagging" at the starting "qualifying" levels but this does not produce elite skaters. Why? Only the top 4 at regional go to sectionals, and only the top 4 at sectionals go to nationals. So if you want a reasonable chance of your child reaching nationals at the juvenile level, you better "sandbag." But that spectacular 13-year old Juvenile girl who sandbagged for 4 years is now toying with puberty and we know what wins - puberty. In a couple more years, that spectacular 13-year old Juvenile girl (who is now a 15-year old Novice at best) is maxed out.

So for that reason, USFS should be looking at the 9-year old Juvenile girl who is further down in the pack but can still perform the tricks. In four years, that middle of the pack girl could be a 13-year old Junior who is now working out all the kinks on her triples. She can now spend three years as a Junior level continuing to work hard so that as soon as she turn 15, she can compete internationally. Polina Edmunds this followed and my impression is USFS essentially ignored her until she won Juniors at 14 (3rd time competing at that level).

If USFS really wants to work on their "pipeline," then they need to go back to the old Junior Nationals system (Juvenile and Intermediates) where the top 10?? girls at regionals went Nationals (skipped sectionals). This give more girls the opportunity to gain experience they need to succeed in the long-term. Something else to ponder - how many "star" Juvenile girls remains stars all the way through to the Senior levels? I am not aware of any.

The above addresses the girl pipeline, which is very different from the boy pipeline in terms of numbers. Last year, South Atlantic had ~115 girls at the Juvenile level but only 14 boys at the Juvenile level. And South Atlantic is only 1 of 9 regions.
 

BusyMom

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Jan 10, 2014
^^ It will be hard for a change since US is such big countries. Someone won't be happy with the changes one way or another. From what you said, so few young kids got a chance to get recognition. No wonder some of top skaters have a history of missing the cuts. It sounds like if you had a bad skate, your season practically over. :cry:
 

R.D.

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Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Very interesting.

But, I wonder - is that REALLY the underlying issue here? It seems the current system, flawed as it might be, has worked for decades and produced numbers of world-class champions...it's only the past decade or so that things have dried up...coincidentally, roughly the age of the IJS. Unless something (else) has changed drastically? I don't follow skating at the lower levels to know.
 

concorde

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Jul 29, 2013
Agreed that you cannot make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time.

USFS did drastically change the lower levels in 2011 by eliminating "Junior Nationals." Before them, the top 10 Juvenile and Intermediate finishers at each Regional went to Nationals. Now to get to Nationals at these "beginner" qualifying levels, you have to be in the top 4 at Regionals and then be in the top 4 at Sectionals.

To compare - at "Junior Nationals" in 2010 you had 90 Juveniles and 90 Intermediates competing. Now, at Nationals, you have 12 Juveniles and 12 Intermediates. I believe the rationale for the change was to save USFS money. This may be true, but I don't think the set-up creates a strong "pipeline" in the long term.

And yes - one bad skate and your season is over. We have a former US National Champion who skates at our rink. According to him, the pressure is awful at Nationals because one 4-minute skate determines what you will be doing for the next 4 months (and can also negate all your hard work over the last 10 months.)
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
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May 19, 2011
And yes - one bad skate and your season is over. We have a former US National Champion who skates at our rink. According to him, the pressure is awful at Nationals because one 4-minute skate determines what you will be doing for the next 4 months (and can also negate all your hard work over the last 10 months.)

That's just the harshness of the sport. Think about Mao in Sochi...everything she'd worked toward for the past 4 years was blown away in less than 2 minutes and 50 seconds. She had no hope of winning gold after that SP.

It's a brutal sport, that's for sure. :cry:
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
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ROTFL like any non Russian lady EVER had a hope of the Sochi gold.

Of course they did...just not after Adelina skated her FS. Like I said in another post, she made it very easy for the judges to give her that gold by skating so well. I do wonder what would have happened if Mao had hit her SP in Sochi the way she did in Saitama and then skated her FS the way she did. I'm sure her PCS would have been higher had she skated in the final group...maybe she'd have finished 2nd?

IDK...doesn't matter any way. :eek:hwell:
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Do You Think that USFS Has Killed Ashley's Career by Sending Her to Sochi ?

no.

Of course they did...just not after Adelina skated her FS. Like I said in another post, she made it very easy for the judges to give her that gold by skating so well. I do wonder what would have happened if Mao had hit her SP in Sochi the way she did in Saitama and then skated her FS the way she did. I'm sure her PCS would have been higher had she skated in the final group...maybe she'd have finished 2nd?

IDK...doesn't matter any way. :eek:hwell:

non russian skater has no chance to win that ogm.. heck when julia beat kostner in the sp in the team event.. the non russian skater has no chance... all they need to do is not choke... regardless of the flutz.. and double footed jump..
 

fairly4

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Joined
Oct 28, 2007
ashley skated well, yes, she could have medal as well as gracie-both at worlds and olympics, but due to whatever reason the judges thought differently.
mostly since the new scoring system have been in they have been keeping the u.s ladies scores low as well as in pairs, but pairs is more obvious as to why. the ladies not so obvious.

i could state my reasons why, but i dont . i dont want to start a firestorm, bring up old feelings.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
I don't think the judges were keeping the US ladies down? Not Gracie at any rate. Gracie sure as heck didn't deserve to be on the podium in Sochi--judges acually gave her a personal best with a fall. She blew her own chances in Saitama. Ashley probably should've finished higher in Saitama, ahead of Gracie.... but the judges probably lowballed her for being USA #2 right now. I see no anti-American conspiracy.

The pipeline simply dried up. It happens. Just like Russia with men. Time will tell if the US will find its way again, or if it'll fade into the background in skating like Britain. Of course, it is possible that there is a flaw in how the USAFS handled things, that is only now being exposed.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Of course they did...just not after Adelina skated her FS. Like I said in another post, she made it very easy for the judges to give her that gold by skating so well. I do wonder what would have happened if Mao had hit her SP in Sochi the way she did in Saitama and then skated her FS the way she did. I'm sure her PCS would have been higher had she skated in the final group...maybe she'd have finished 2nd?

IDK...doesn't matter any way. :eek:hwell:

Agreed. If Sotnikova bombed and with Julia bombing, then the Russians wouldn't have won. However, with clean skates by the Russians of course any non-Russian lady didn't have a hope at gold. But it's foolish to think that if Sotnikova fell she would have beaten Kim, even with the dubious judging.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
ashley skated well, yes, she could have medal as well as gracie-both at worlds and olympics, but due to whatever reason the judges thought differently.
mostly since the new scoring system have been in they have been keeping the u.s ladies scores low as well as in pairs, but pairs is more obvious as to why. the ladies not so obvious.

i could state my reasons why, but i dont . i dont want to start a firestorm, bring up old feelings.

Not with Gracie. Her PCS rose tremendously during the Olympics from her clean team FS (68.33 PCS) to her individual FS (61.89 PCS) with a fall. And look at the components scores of her clean team event compared to her mistake-riddled FS from Worlds (66.69 PCS). It makes no sense. :unsure: She was VERY lucky to be 5th, when she should have been behind Suzuki and Wagner.

Ashley's PCS is about the same, probably a bit lower than deserved. But she hasn't really sizzled and has had UR errors and other minor errors, so I don't see why her PCS should be higher than it is when she hasn't exactly done anything to increase it. Although if you look at other skaters like Lip and Gold who are getting higher PCS for programs with falls (compared to PCS they've gotten for clean programs), it looks pretty unfair to skaters like Wagner and Edmunds.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
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Dec 27, 2009
Very interesting.

But, I wonder - is that REALLY the underlying issue here? It seems the current system, flawed as it might be, has worked for decades and produced numbers of world-class champions...it's only the past decade or so that things have dried up...coincidentally, roughly the age of the IJS. Unless something (else) has changed drastically? I don't follow skating at the lower levels to know.

The biggest issue from what I see from posters is that USFS tend to not cultivate skaters in the early stages. Someone pointed to the fact that basically Polina was virtually ignored until she finally won the Jr. National title in 2013 (i.e. didn't get any JGP assignments; etc). Someone pointed out that Gracie was killing the summer comps in 2011, but USFS didn't give her a JGP event until the final one and that's only because somebody WD from their spot.

Others feel that JGP assignments given based on nationals results are flawed because a lot can happen between nationals and the fall JGP season.

That said, I do think USFS has made more of an effort to get skaters out there sooner, i.e. sending Tyler Pierce to JGP after competing at the Novice level.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
^You've also stated before that any one of Plushenko, Kovtun, Voronov, or Menshov would've won men's with fewer than three falls, even against clean Hanyu and Chan. I'm sorry, but Menshov with 2 falls winning over clean Chan is even more absurd than I/K winning over D/W.
 
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