South Korea will attempt to pass 'host nation' automatic qualification through ISU.

Sandpiper · May 21, 2014

I got the sense that Russia just wanted an extra slot. But, like you, I'm just going by the comments here.

Yeah, extra 8 minutes won't hurt anybody! (Well, it'll hurt a lot less than taking away from the actual #24 and #20). And if they don't make it to the free skate, it'll just be an extra three minutes. :laugh:

gravy · May 21, 2014

I feel conflicted on this subject. A couple of years ago, the FIG placed a 2 per country cap in each gymnastics discipline to allow athletes from lesser known countries to compete. As a result, dozens of qualified athletes are often eliminated from finals for the sake of maintaining diversity in the sport.

The figure skating dilemma is better than the gymnastics one, however. The four gymnastic powerhouses (US, Russia, China, and Romania) often produce many world-class gymnasts at once who are all medal threats but cannot compete because of the cap. For example, since only 2 gymnasts were able to compete in the all-around finals per country in London 2012, Jordyn Wieber who qualified 4th overall (and very much in gold medal contention) was not eligible to compete because 2 other athletes (Aly and Gabby) from the US qualified ahead of her at #2 and #3.

At least in figure skating, those in spots #20 and #24 won't be contending for medals. But it must still suck to be in that position... to know you should have qualified but didn't because of a silly rule.

But then again I also understand that it makes so much sense to gift Korea those spots (especially since it was allowed in the past). I think they should be given them, though.

Alba · May 21, 2014

Sandpiper said:
I got the sense that Russia just wanted an extra slot. But, like you, I'm just going by the comments here.

Yeah, extra 8 minutes won't hurt anybody! (Well, it'll hurt a lot less than taking away from the actual #24 and #20). And if they don't make it to the free skate, it'll just be an extra three minutes.

Exactly.

Sandpiper · May 21, 2014

This is not quite as extreme as the gymnastics example, which has a more wide-reaching effect. Also, it seems like the gymnastics powerhouses can produce far more than 2 medal contenders each. That's... kinda not the case in figure skating. It seems more common for figure skating powerhouses to produce one favourite to win/huge medal threat, one decent mid-pack skater, and one that's just... there? (See: Canada's men's entries for Sochi). Right now, only Russian ladies seem to have enough ammunition to fill three slots with all medal contenders. I guess the Japanese men did too, until the post-Sochi retirements. But from what I gather, in gymnastics, the top countries can often produce 3 medal contenders in every discipline.

But it would still suck for team #20 and team #24. Just add an extra slot.

cooper · May 21, 2014

gravy said:
But then again I also understand that it makes so much sense to gift Korea those spots (especially since it was allowed in the past). I think they should be given them, though.

this..

i don't know what's the big deal.. it's not like this is the first time that it happened.. they allowed it from the past host.. then they got rid of it just in time when pyeongchang won.. :rolleye:

so.. why not for korea?? :rolleye:

mich2 · May 21, 2014

Sandpiper said:
I got the sense that Russia just wanted an extra slot. But, like you, I'm just going by the comments here.

Yeah, extra 8 minutes won't hurt anybody! (Well, it'll hurt a lot less than taking away from the actual #24 and #20). And if they don't make it to the free skate, it'll just be an extra three minutes.

No, Russia did not ask for extra spot, they wanted to substitue the skater because of Plushenko health issues. They would still have one earned spot in Men, not two. Korea wants to take two slots from those who earned them in competitions. They got rid of that gifted spots rule for a reason to make sport be more competitive and fair. No reason to go back now.

seabm7 · May 21, 2014

mich2 said:
They got rid of that gifted spots rule for a reason to make sport be more competitive and fair. No reason to go back now.

When Korea bid for the Olympics, the host rule was alive. From the host point of view, the rule change after the city got selected is unfair. If they wanted to change the rule, they should have done before the start of the bidding process for the Olympics.

mich2 · May 21, 2014

seabm7 said:
When Korea bid for the Olympics, the host rule was alive. From the host point of view, the rule change after the city got selected is unfair. If they wanted to change the rule, they should have done before the start of the bidding process for the Olympics.

Korea would not bid for Olympics if the current rule was valid back then? They did it just to show us some Korean pair and dance couple that could not qualify in competitions? Is it what you are saying? Sorry, its hardly an argument.

karne · May 21, 2014

seabm7 said:
When Korea bid for the Olympics, the host rule was alive. From the host point of view, the rule change after the city got selected is unfair. If they wanted to change the rule, they should have done before the start of the bidding process for the Olympics.

Golf was included for Rio before Rio bid for the Olympics. *shrugs* It happens all the time.

I believe what Russia asked for was for the qualified spots to be added to the host spots, but still to the maximum of three. So, say they qualified two ladies, it would be two qualified + one host. It didn't seem unreasonable to me though it was obvious that at the time they were scrambling to cover up the humiliation of Precious Golden Boy Kovtun failing to get more than one spot at Worlds. That said, I didn't agree with it and was glad it never became serious.

What Korea is effectively asking for is a free pass to the team event AND to kick out other countries that would have EARNED a spot from dance and pairs. Sorry, go out and qualify them like everyone else.

(But somehow, because that was Russia and this is Korea, that was horrible and evil and this is okay.)

uhh · May 21, 2014

Even if the rule was in effect for previous games, it hasn't actually been needed - going over the last Olympics, Russia, Canada, Italy, USA all qualified skaters outright without using the host nation spot. South Korea should be able to get a spot, maybe 2, in ladies and one in dance, and they also had a couple of promising men, although they've dropped off a bit in the last couple of seasons. Barring disaster, they will have representatives in figure skating even without this rule.

You see this host nation spot more frequently in Summer Olympics I think - Team GB had an entrant in almost every discipline for the London Games, and while most of them qualified in their own right, there were a few like waterpolo and race walking that needed the host spot. It does help the atmosphere if the home crowd has someone to root for, but I really don't think it does anything to help the development of the sport in that country - 2 years later and the GB waterpolo team no longer competes internationally.

I don't have a problem with the idea in sports where there is not a tight limit on the size of field - so in race walking or biathalon one athlete more or less is not going to change much. But in figure skating the fields are already so constrained and you just have to go to Nebelhorn at the start of the Olympic season to see just how many skaters there are capable of reaching the TES minimum fighting for a place. I don't think it helps the sport at all to reduce the number of places available through free competition & reserve them for certain countries for any reason. And thinking in broader terms, not just about South Korea, this proposal will only aid countries capable of hosting the Olympics, which as we all know is a hugely expensive undertaking. Rich countries already dominate the skating world, I don't think they need any further help.

seabm7 · May 21, 2014

mich2 said:
Korea would not bid for Olympics if the current rule was valid back then? They did it just to show us some Korean pair and dance couple that could not qualify in competitions? Is it what you are saying? Sorry, its hardly an argument.

It costs a lot to host the Olympics games. The host country has to build brand new arenas, other infrastructures, etc. When cities are bidding for the games, they are promising that they will bear all these expenses. In return, IOC and sports organizations give certain terms to the cities, too. The cities do the math and decide whether they will proceed or not. The same by sports organizations, too. If one of these promises could not be kept later, they would engage for an acceptable compromise for both parties. That is what we are seeing now.

TMC · May 21, 2014

cooper said:
this..

i don't know what's the big deal.. it's not like this is the first time that it happened.. they allowed it from the past host.. then they got rid of it just in time when pyeongchang won.. so.. why not for korea??

Yep, I agree. It's always been so and nobody's noticed enough to care/complain so why should it be so horrible now. I was shocked to hear it has been discontinued.
It can be only good for the host country (financially, encouraging new talent etc.) and for FS in general (more countries competing -> more interest worldwide -> mo money). One host spot for each discipline should be automatic, but if the host country has earned one spot via its skaters - or more - there would of course be no extra host spot on top of that. Just a guarantee that the host country would have one entry no matter what, which they could use or not.

uhh · May 21, 2014

TMC said:
Yep, I agree. It's always been so and nobody's noticed enough to care/complain so why should it be so horrible now. I was shocked to hear it has been discontinued.
It can be only good for the host country (financially, encouraging new talent etc.) and for FS in general (more countries competing -> more interest worldwide -> mo money). One host spot for each discipline should be automatic, but if the host country has earned one spot via its skaters - or more - there would of course be no extra host spot on top of that. Just a guarantee that the host country would have one entry no matter what, which they could use or not.

No one has complained because it hasn't been used for ages. Host countries have qualified in all disciplines in the previous 4 Olympics apart from Italy in Pairs in 2006 - but there was no Italian team at all, so was the rule not in place or was there no pair to take the place? Maybe someone else can remember better!

I don't see how it will lead to more countries competing - the number of skaters in the event is still the same, and the spot that goes to the host country most likely means another non powerhouse skating country misses out. Look at what happened this year. The last qualifiers at Nebelhorn this year were from Italy (Men), Brazil (Women), Austria (Pairs) and Spain (Ice Dance). Apart from Italy, all of those countries are still developing their skating programmes. If Brazil had lost their entry, they would have had no representation in Sochi & Spain would have only had an entrant in the Men's event. How does it help to take spots away from countries like these to help another country that will likely qualify in 2 of the events anyway?

cooper · May 21, 2014

mich2 said:
Korea would not bid for Olympics if the current rule was valid back then? They did it just to show us some Korean pair and dance couple that could not qualify in competitions? Is it what you are saying? Sorry, its hardly an argument.

wait.. how is this infair? what the host nation now is asking is within the precedent that happened from the past.. :rolleye:

the host nations was supposed to have this chance before they got rid with the rule just in time when pyeongchang won.. you and karne are desperately trying to make it a big deal because according to you it is the same what happened to russia.. this is completely different!!! you're comparing a precedent that actually happened from the past which was given to the host country from a favor that is unprecedented which russia was aiming for..

Antilopa · May 21, 2014

cooper said:
it is the same what happened to russia.. that is unprecedented which russia was aiming for..

what are you talking about?

mich2 · May 21, 2014

seabm7 said:
It costs a lot to host the Olympics games. The host country has to build brand new arenas, other infrastructures, etc. When cities are bidding for the games, they are promising that they will bear all these expenses. In return, IOC and sports organizations give certain terms to the cities, too. The cities do the math and decide whether they will proceed or not. The same by sports organizations, too. If one of these promises could not be kept later, they would engage for an acceptable compromise for both parties. That is what we are seeing now.

Everybody knows that it costs money to host Olympics. Nevertheless when Russia asked for a favour, they did not get it. Why Korea should get any favour. Go to the ice and fight for your spot.

karne · May 21, 2014

cooper said:
wait.. how is this infair? what the host nation now is asking is within the precedent that happened from the past.. the host nations was supposed to have this chance before they got rid with the rule just in time when pyeongchang won.. you and karne are desperately trying to make it a big deal because according to you it is the same what happened to russia.. this is completely different!!! you're comparing a precedent that actually happened from the past which was given to the host country from a favor that is unprecedented which russia was aiming for..

And you're making a big song and dance about it because you believe in some kind of crazy anti-Korea conspiracy.

What Korea is asking for is desperately unfair. They want to take away a qualifying spot to give to a pair or dance team of their own who may not have qualified. As someone from a country that relies on qualification, I will fight tooth and nail to stop that kind of thing. If Korea wants in on the team event, then they should earn it on their own merits, not by stealing spots from other small countries!

jaylee · May 21, 2014

mich2 said:
Korean idea is more unfair. They want to take the 10th slot in Team Event from the country that actually earned it.

karne said:
What Korea is effectively asking for is a free pass to the team event AND to kick out other countries that would have EARNED a spot from dance and pairs. Sorry, go out and qualify them like everyone else.

Where is the evidence that Korea is asking for a free pass to the team event?

Sandpiper said:
Hmm, reading it again, the #20 and #24 thing is kinda suspicious. Since Pairs are limited to 20 entries and Dance to 24... that does sound like they're trying to take the spots of people who actually earned them. Since there'd only be 19 and 23 spots left for everyone else to earn.

If that's the case, this indeed is worse than Russia's proposal.

That's the way the host country rule has ALWAYS been applied, including for Russia in 2014--if the host country did not qualify a spot in each discipline, they were given the final entry in each discipline--the total number of entries did not change regardless of whether the host earned the spot the traditional way or through the guaranteed spot as host.

The rules were well-established BEFORE qualifying competitions, so skaters knew how many spots were available. No skater earned the spot and then had it taken away by the evil host country.

I don't see how what Korea is asking for could be "worse" when Russia had the benefit of the FULL RULE applying to all its disciplines when Korea is asking for it to only be applied to two disciplines!

seabm7 · May 21, 2014

mich2 said:
Everybody knows that it costs money to host Olympics. Nevertheless when Russia asked for a favour, they did not get it. Why Korea should get any favour. Go to the ice and fight for your spot.

In my opinion, Korea is not asking for a favor. What they are asking is re-establishment of a certain condition obtained by a fair bidding process.

jaylee · May 21, 2014

karne said:
And you're making a big song and dance about it because you believe in some kind of crazy anti-Korea conspiracy.

What Korea is asking for is desperately unfair. They want to take away a qualifying spot to give to a pair or dance team of their own who may not have qualified. As someone from a country that relies on qualification, I will fight tooth and nail to stop that kind of thing. If Korea wants in on the team event, then they should earn it on their own merits, not by stealing spots from other small countries!

"Stealing spots?" :laugh:

You know, this thread is just classic. No one bothers looking up facts, no one bothers doing research, (and y'all ignore the facts that WERE posted), people just post on whether or not they support the skater/country involved, people make up lies about Korea gunning for a free pass to the team event (where is the proof?), "stealing spots" from skaters and other countries.

Watching posters work up all sorts of indignation about Korea's request is mind-boggling...never mind that this rule previously existed to protect every single host country! Who cares about logic or having an honest debate?

Take out Korea and Russia from this debate and facts are facts. The 2018 Olympics host is asking for something that was part of a long-running tradition that was taken away before its games. The 2014 Olympics host asked for something that it was not traditionally entitled to, trying to find some kind of loophole/exception in the rules that didn't exist.

South Korea will attempt to pass 'host nation' automatic qualification through ISU.

Sandpiper

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