South Korea will attempt to pass 'host nation' automatic qualification through ISU. | Page 4 | Golden Skate

South Korea will attempt to pass 'host nation' automatic qualification through ISU.

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I disagree, but only for one reason.

When Russia suggested the same thing, they were howled down with anger and bashing.

Now suddenly because it's Korea it's okay?

because Korea is a non threat
anyways I don't see anything wrong here, hosts shoudl definitely get entries
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Leave aside the "traditional entitlement" - qualification rules change in every sport all the time, often with much less notice than this. Do posters honestly believe the giving the host an automatic slot does anything to ehance the sport? Surely skating in South Korea will not get any benefit that they didn't already have from having the pre-eminent female skater in the Worlds for such a long time.
 

TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
"Stealing spots?" :laugh: You know, this thread is just classic. No one bothers looking up facts, no one bothers doing research, (and y'all ignore the facts that WERE posted), people just post on whether or not they support the skater/country involved, people make up lies about Korea gunning for a free pass to the team event (where is the proof?), "stealing spots" from skaters and other countries.

Watching posters work up all sorts of indignation about Korea's request is mind-boggling...never mind that this rule previously existed to protect every single host country! Who cares about logic or having an honest debate?

Take out Korea and Russia from this debate and facts are facts. The 2018 Olympics host is asking for something that was part of a long-running tradition that was taken away before its games. The 2014 Olympics host asked for something that it was not traditionally entitled to, trying to find some kind of loophole/exception in the rules that didn't exist.

:clap: Thank you for this very reasonable post, you took the words right out of my brain!
 

TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
No one has complained because it hasn't been used for ages. Host countries have qualified in all disciplines in the previous 4 Olympics apart from Italy in Pairs in 2006 - but there was no Italian team at all, so was the rule not in place or was there no pair to take the place? Maybe someone else can remember better!

I don't see how it will lead to more countries competing - the number of skaters in the event is still the same, and the spot that goes to the host country most likely means another non powerhouse skating country misses out. Look at what happened this year. The last qualifiers at Nebelhorn this year were from Italy (Men), Brazil (Women), Austria (Pairs) and Spain (Ice Dance). Apart from Italy, all of those countries are still developing their skating programmes. If Brazil had lost their entry, they would have had no representation in Sochi & Spain would have only had an entrant in the Men's event. How does it help to take spots away from countries like these to help another country that will likely qualify in 2 of the events anyway?

- For example: Norway had host spots for both men and ladies in -94 but decided not to enter anyway because their skaters weren't good enough.
- No spots will be taken away from anybody. Everybody knows (or knew, or should have known) that there is always the possibility of a host spot being filled at the olys. Other countries are fighting for the remaining 19 (or whatever discipline has whatever number of entries) spots. It wasn't like, say, 20 pairs qualified at Nebelhorn and in January suddenly the host country OC rang up the last place finishers and said "You're out of the olys since we've decided to enter our skaters instead. Buh-bye, hashtag sorry-not-sorry!"
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Where is the evidence that Korea is asking for a free pass to the team event?

The asking for only pairs and dance, and not men and ladies where they have already decent skaters (presumably the KFed is going to try and force Yuna to come back for 2018)? Pretty obvious they're looking for entry into the team event.

After all, if you apply their "logic", they'll only sell tickets to pairs and dance if there are Koreans there. So why wouldn't that automatically apply to the team event too?

Russia did not benefit from the rule. They qualified spots in every discipline.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
What?? dont make up lies

:confused: Lies? I'm not the one who brought Russia into this thread. It was several other posters who brought in what Russia attempted to do and claim that what Korea is doing is exactly the same, when it's clear that they are not the same kind of request at all.

The asking for only pairs and dance, and not men and ladies where they have already decent skaters (presumably the KFed is going to try and force Yuna to come back for 2018)? Pretty obvious they're looking for entry into the team event.

After all, if you apply their "logic", they'll only sell tickets to pairs and dance if there are Koreans there. So why wouldn't that automatically apply to the team event too?

Let's look back at what you said. You said, "What Korea is effectively asking for is a free pass to the team event". If they still have to qualify men and ladies, then it's not a free pass to the team event. And for any country trying to qualify for the team event, you only have to officially qualify three of the disciplines anyway under the current rules. Korea has a promising young ice dance team, so they could possibly legitimately qualify men's, ladies, and ice dance, and then be allowed to bring in a pairs team for the team event.

So no, with the current proposal, it's not "pretty obvious they're looking for entry into the team event." Nor is Yuna going to forced to come back. So stop making stuff up.

Russia did not benefit from the rule. They qualified spots in every discipline.

Russia benefited by the rule because it existed prior to their going through qualifying and protected them no matter what. This rule gave them insurance in case it didn't qualify spots through the traditional method.

Do you understand the point of insurance? You don't always need it, but it's good to have it in case something bad happens. Yes, Russia benefited. No matter how poorly Kovtun did at 2013 Worlds, Russia would have had a men's spot at the 2014 Olympics. Who knows how he would've done if that guarantee hadn't existed? Would the additional pressure have crushed him even more? It may have. But Russia had the protection of that rule, so we won't ever know.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
It wasn't like, say, 20 pairs qualified at Nebelhorn and in January suddenly the host country OC rang up the last place finishers and said "You're out of the olys since we've decided to enter our skaters instead. Buh-bye, hashtag sorry-not-sorry!"

:laugh: :thumbsup:
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
- No spots will be taken away from anybody. Everybody knows (or knew, or should have known) that there is always the possibility of a host spot being filled at the olys. Other countries are fighting for the remaining 19 (or whatever discipline has whatever number of entries) spots. It wasn't like, say, 20 pairs qualified at Nebelhorn and in January suddenly the host country OC rang up the last place finishers and said "You're out of the olys since we've decided to enter our skaters instead. Buh-bye, hashtag sorry-not-sorry!"

I'm not talking about specific spots - those are just examples of the types of countries that are affected by this rule. I'm talking about limiting the number that are available, in fields that are already very small, and how it can hurt the chances for countries that are not traditionally strong skating countries. I suppose it doesn't matter for people from countries that will qualify multiple skaters, but if you're from a country that's in that group fighting it out for the last few spots, it's very disheartening to think that one of those highly contested places is taken by skaters from a host country who have not achieved the same results that you have. If we are saying it is for the benefit of the sport, which is how South Korea framed it, I really do question whether it helps the sport for 1 country to be guaranteed an entry in each event, or for multiple smaller countries to be able to qualify properly through fair competition in 1 event. Look at other sports where host countries have been given an automatic entry and see how it has developed that sport in that country - I can tell you it has a knock on effect for perhaps 2 years at most. You can't build up a sport on the back of levering people into the Olympics when they haven't really qualified, it has been shown time & time again to bring no benefits.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I'm not talking about specific spots - those are just examples of the types of countries that are affected by this rule. I'm talking about limiting the number that are available, in fields that are already very small, and how it can hurt the chances for countries that are not traditionally strong skating countries. I suppose it doesn't matter for people from countries that will qualify multiple skaters, but if you're from a country that's in that group fighting it out for the last few spots, it's very disheartening to think that one of those highly contested places is taken by skaters from a host country who have not achieved the same results that you have. If we are saying it is for the benefit of the sport, which is how South Korea framed it, I really do question whether it helps the sport for 1 country to be guaranteed an entry in each event, or for multiple smaller countries to be able to qualify properly through fair competition in 1 event. Look at other sports where host countries have been given an automatic entry and see how it has developed that sport in that country - I can tell you it has a knock on effect for perhaps 2 years at most. You can't build up a sport on the back of levering people into the Olympics when they haven't really qualified, it has been shown time & time again to bring no benefits.

for the thousand times.. what south korea's proposal already happened in several olympics for the host nation in the past..it's not like this is the ONLY EXCEPTION.. i don't know what's the big deal about this.. :eek:hwell:
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Do you understand the point of insurance? You don't always need it, but it's good to have it in case something bad happens. Yes, Russia benefited. No matter how poorly Kovtun did at 2013 Worlds, Russia would have had a men's spot at the 2014 Olympics. Who knows how he would've done if that guarantee hadn't existed? Would the additional pressure have crushed him even more? It may have. But Russia had the protection of that rule, so we won't ever know.

Except it sounds more like it's not going to be insurance - it's going to be the only way the Korean skaters get to the Olympics.

I don't agree with the rule (regardless of country) - it is taking a spot away from someone, from how I understand it: there are only x number of spots available and if xyz skater from the host nation can't qualify in based on their performance but get in because their country is hosting the Games, then it is taking a spot away from somebody who qualified based on their performance. What if the last qualifying skater is the only skater from a certain nation, then not only is that skater losing their spot, but the country is losing it's only representative?

*I don't know the history of this rule being used for figure skating or why it was removed, but I do agree with it being removed - the Olympics only come around every 4 years and there are only a certain number of spots available for the Olympics it seems wrong that someone should be able to get in based solely on their country hosting the Games.
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
for the thousand times.. what south korea's proposal already happened in several olympics for the host nation in the past..it's not like this is the ONLY EXCEPTION.. i don't know what's the big deal about this.. :eek:hwell:

Just because it happened before (and for the 10,000th time, it hasn't actually been needed or used for many years) doesn't mean that it's a good idea. It was positive step to get rid of that rule, South Korea's proposal is only taking us backwards.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Except it sounds more like it's not going to be insurance - it's going to be the only way the Korean skaters get to the Olympics.

I don't agree with the rule (regardless of country) - it is taking a spot away from someone, from how I understand it: there are only x number of spots available and if xyz skater from the host nation can't qualify in based on their performance but get in because their country is hosting the Games, then it is taking a spot away from somebody who qualified based on their performance. What if the last qualifying skater is the only skater from a certain nation, then not only is that skater losing their spot, but the country is losing it's only representative?

*I don't know the history of this rule being used for figure skating or why it was removed, but I do agree with it being removed - the Olympics only come around every 4 years and there are only a certain number of spots available for the Olympics it seems wrong that someone should be able to get in based solely on their country hosting the Games.

Just because it happened before (and for the 10,000th time, it hasn't actually been needed or used for many years) doesn't mean that it's a good idea. It was positive step to get rid of that rule, South Korea's proposal is only taking us backwards.

my goodness.. no one is taking any spot..

The South Korean Skating Federation is putting forth a proposal to allow a host nation pair team (to be Couple #20) and an Ice Dance team (to be Couple #24)- as long as they meet the Technical Minimums for the OWG.


they still have to meet the technical minimums for the owg.. just like every country.. again what's the big deal? :rolleye:
 

makaihime

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
I'm against it simply because the original rule was unfair to other skaters to begin with and I for one, was glad it was removed. I agree with the poster above me, it was a positive step forward to get rid of it and I'm not happy that we might see it come back.

Though from a financial standpoint, it makes sense because without any teams representing the host country the stands might be empty especially if that country isn't all that interested in the sport as a whole to begin with. Although this might not be true, case in point Sochi. It was pretty empty even with their teams being contenders for the Gold....So yeah, I guess I'm going to stick with vetoing the idea to reinstate this rule. :eek:hwell:
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
my goodness.. no one is taking any spot..

The South Korean Skating Federation is putting forth a proposal to allow a host nation pair team (to be Couple #20) and an Ice Dance team (to be Couple #24)- as long as they meet the Technical Minimums for the OWG.


they still have to meet the technical minimums for the owg.. just like every country.. again what's the big deal? :rolleye:

Every other country has to meet the Technical Mimimums AND then qualify through their competition results. I counted very quickly 14 dance teams from different countries who met the minimum scores and didn't go to the Olympics, there may be more that I have missed. Why should 1 team be held up as more worthy of going to the Olympics over them? Many of those countries could never hold a Winter Olympics - it is hugely unfair to give 1 team a free ticket when it's based on something that the teams themselves have absolutely no control over. Just judge the teams on their competition results and fill the places from that.

If the original fields were bigger & there was a qualifying round like we used to have at Worlds & Euros, or if everyone who met the TES minimum could go & them more skaters were cut after the Short I wouldn't have a problem. But as it is the fields are already small, so we shouldn't reduce the number of spots available further by reserving some for special cases.
 

Alain

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
The new proposed rule is not about asking an additional spot. Even in the past, the host rule was to grant one spot if the host country could not earn any entry, per each discipline.

For example, let's assume Korea has earned one entry for ladies and zero entry for all the other disciplines for 2018. If the proposed rule is accepted, they can ask for one entry for pair and one entry for dance.

From the financial point of view, this makes sense. Men's singles is popular in Asia. People can buy shuttle plane tickets between Korea and neighboring countries at a reasonable price. They would sell enough tickets even if there is no Korean man in the competition. Not for pairs or dances.
They should ask #16 and #20 in FS and FD too to sell tickets. :biggrin:
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Is it a big problem to add the number of competitors?

The IOC do not want big increases in the number of athletes because then the hosts have to provide more accommodation etc. It is one of the arguments given against including synchro in the Olympics.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
The IOC do not want big increases in the number of athletes because then the hosts have to provide more accommodation etc. It is one of the arguments given against including synchro in the Olympics.

But how hard is it to accommodate skaters who likely live near Seoul? :laugh:
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Every other country has to meet the Technical Mimimums AND then qualify through their competition results. I counted very quickly 14 dance teams from different countries who met the minimum scores and didn't go to the Olympics, there may be more that I have missed. Why should 1 team be held up as more worthy of going to the Olympics over them? Many of those countries could never hold a Winter Olympics - it is hugely unfair to give 1 team a free ticket when it's based on something that the teams themselves have absolutely no control over. Just judge the teams on their competition results and fill the places from that.

If the original fields were bigger & there was a qualifying round like we used to have at Worlds & Euros, or if everyone who met the TES minimum could go & them more skaters were cut after the Short I wouldn't have a problem. But as it is the fields are already small, so we shouldn't reduce the number of spots available further by reserving some for special cases.

again.. no one is taking any spot! what's wrong with adding another? :rolleye:
 
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