Great Article About Virtue and Moir and Olympics

cruzceleste · May 28, 2014

Coltrocks12 said:
If Canada is mad at Marina I think they should get on her for not giving them a good enough program. I think that the program was too soft with not enough contrast, and then they didn't skate it as well as D/W did theirs on top of it. Slight difference but enough for D/W to win by about 4-5 points.

Well, couldnt it be that Marina was trying to protect both V/M of their injuries?

Coltrocks12 · May 28, 2014

cruzceleste said:
Well, couldnt it be that Marina was trying to protect both V/M of their injuries?

Could be, but she could've picked music that gave them more of a built-in story and still protected their injuries. I didn't care for the Michael Jackson program of the Shibs either as it didn't move the audience, wasn't edgy enough, and didn't tell a clear story. I think the right music can make or break how your scoring goes. I also agree with Doris that "career reflection" programs don't usually score as well. It is hard to build the right story arc that is clear with those kind of "ambiguous" story lines. If they are going to do a career reflection program, they need to select music that makes that intention clear, otherwise it is better to save those for exhibitions or years where Olympics are not in the cycle. I agree that they should've done the career reflection program in 2013 and saved Carmen for 2014 (though it is on my list of overused music) as the program had impact and would have helped them score closer to Meryl/Charlie in the artistry marks. I do think Meryl/Charlie would've still won because of the little mistakes that Tessa/Scott were making in the programs. This is where I think the injuries for V/M played a part.

cruzceleste · May 28, 2014

Coltrocks12 said:
Could be, but she could've picked music that gave them more of a built-in story and still protected their injuries. I didn't care for the Michael Jackson program of the Shibs either as it didn't move the audience, wasn't edgy enough, and didn't tell a clear story. I think the right music can make or break how your scoring goes. I also agree with Doris that "career reflection" programs don't usually score as well. It is hard to build the right story arc that is clear with those kind of "ambiguous" story lines. If they are going to do a career reflection program, they need to select music that makes that intention clear, otherwise it is better to save those for exhibitions or years where Olympics are not in the cycle. I agree that they should've done the career reflection program in 2013 and saved Carmen for 2014 (though it is on my list of overused music) as the program had impact and would have helped them score closer to Meryl/Charlie in the artistry marks. I do think Meryl/Charlie would've still won because of the little mistakes that Tessa/Scott were making in the programs. This is where I think the injuries for V/M played a part.

Interesting. I have always have this idea where is actually Charlie the one that cuts Meryl and his music programs. It just seem that the transitions between the segments are more soft and well structured, weather Shibs and V/M have very "hard" changes in their music.

WeakAnkles · May 28, 2014

NorthernDancers said:
It's all well and good to try to explain the marks as provided, but that means actually believing the marks are what they should be. My argument over the last couple of years with more than these teams is that there appears to be a different standard of judging applied to different teams. It's happened within country in Canada, and it certainly has happened internationally a whole lot. It was particularly bad this year internationally. Cup of Russia was a complete joke with regard to scores. And there were plenty of really intelligent and knowledgeable people pointing this disparity out with these 2 teams over the last couple of years as well. V/M were not as strong in the team event in Sochi (but not as bad as the difference in marks implied), but they were exceptional in the individual event. And that's where I have a real issue with the scores. And I'm not the only one.

If we can consider Beverly Smith fairly rational when it comes to skating commentary as stated at the opening of this thread, than this article is also worth a read. It was written after the individual event SD.

http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/something-rotten-in-the-state-of-sochi/

The reason why I prefer V/M over D/W has nothing to do with their nationality. To me V/M bring the dance in ice dance better than any team in at least a generation. Their lines, depth of edges, degree of difficulty, and musicality is unparalleled in my opinion. As an example, Funny Face was quintessential V/M with exceptional difficulty which looked effortless, musicality with incredible attention to detail in the hands, in the feet, in the fingers, in the glances, in the way they played off each other and the music. I still see new things when I watch that program. And then there was Carmen, which will be talked about for many years to come. The things that I feel should be rewarded in ice dance, and are there in print in the rules, are not being scored. It's been a trend not just with V/M vs D/W. D/W read this trend better than V/M, and tactically planned their programs to win the Olympics. But the funny thing about trends: before you know it they change again. Next season, with 1 less lift and more time for dancing, and changes in the SD, should be interesting.

And btw...It is possible to appreciate both teams, and appreciate the effort both have expended (and we have all enjoyed) over so many years, and still prefer one over the other (either one), and still believe that the judging system needs some overhauling....

Beverly Smith fairly rational?

:rofl:

She's one of the most partisan "reporters" I've read.

Doris, it is a blessing having you here to, if you will pardon the expression, walk us through the technical nuances. I always learn something new when you do! Thank you!

Isabel_O'Reilly · May 28, 2014

Coltrocks12 said:
After re-watching the videos, I definitely think that D/W outskated V/M in both artistry and technicality. I agree with the scores. Also it was a slight synch on the first and third twizzle passes for V/M the second one was in synch (I thought it was the second based on memory, but alas I was wrong, hey it happens!) Meryl/Charlie were in synch in all of their twizzles. Also the announcer found a slight mistake on a V/M lift entry that I didn't catch the first time. Also in the description of the rules about story lines I thought that the V/M music didn't have enough contrast for them to build the story arc through the dance as well as D/W music did. If Canada is mad at Marina I think they should get on her for not giving them a good enough program. I think that the program was too soft with not enough contrast, and then they didn't skate it as well as D/W did theirs on top of it. Slight difference but enough for D/W to win by about 4-5 points.

I don't mind any of the moves that V/M did in answer to Sandpiper's question of what's wrong with the hand to heart gesture. I just think they needed some mixture of more drama in amongst the softness instead of a busy piano part. They needed to build hills and valleys, highs and lows. I also thought the program was slightly boring and they looked sluggish at the end of the program. It wasn't as quick or light as Meryl/Charlie and it didn't have the contrasts of hard and soft, playful and dark, etc that D/W had. Thank you Doris for posting the video I needed to watch it again to remember everything correctly.

That's strange because I have the exact opposite impression. Until I watched their FD, which I couldn't bear to until several weeks after the Olympics (because it was obvious that not only could Tessa & Scott not win but the result would not even be remotely close) their Mahler program was the pinnacle of Ice Dance for me: the perfect program. And then I watched their FD: Wow, it was absolutely magnificent. They fly and float over the ice, with great speed and every movement is their music. After watching that and then going back and watching Mahler right after they have improved so much that by direct comparison Mahler looks almost like beginners (relatively speaking). Maybe it's because I didn't watch any of the other performances this last season, not even the team event, but this program was perfection. Even if they didn't win there should have been a closer result to show how well matched the two team are.

Alba · May 28, 2014

Isabel_O'Reilly said:
That's strange because I have the exact opposite impression. Until I watched their FD, which I couldn't bear to until several weeks after the Olympics (because it was obvious that not only could Tessa & Scott not win but the result would not even be remotely close) their Mahler program was the pinnacle of Ice Dance for me: the perfect program. And then I watched their FD: Wow, it was absolutely magnificent. They fly and float over the ice, with great speed and every movement is their music. After watching that and then going back and watching Mahler right after they have improved so much that by direct comparison Mahler looks almost like beginners (relatively speaking). Maybe it's because I didn't watch any of the other performances this last season, not even the team event, but this program was perfection. Even if they didn't win there should have been a closer result to show how well matched the two team are.

I totally agree with you.:thumbsup:

Ice Diva · May 28, 2014

NorthernDancers said:
It's all well and good to try to explain the marks as provided, but that means actually believing the marks are what they should be. My argument over the last couple of years with more than these teams is that there appears to be a different standard of judging applied to different teams. It's happened within country in Canada, and it certainly has happened internationally a whole lot. It was particularly bad this year internationally. Cup of Russia was a complete joke with regard to scores. And there were plenty of really intelligent and knowledgeable people pointing this disparity out with these 2 teams over the last couple of years as well. V/M were not as strong in the team event in Sochi (but not as bad as the difference in marks implied), but they were exceptional in the individual event. And that's where I have a real issue with the scores. And I'm not the only one.

If we can consider Beverly Smith fairly rational when it comes to skating commentary as stated at the opening of this thread, than this article is also worth a read. It was written after the individual event SD.

http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/something-rotten-in-the-state-of-sochi/

The reason why I prefer V/M over D/W has nothing to do with their nationality. To me V/M bring the dance in ice dance better than any team in at least a generation. Their lines, depth of edges, degree of difficulty, and musicality is unparalleled in my opinion. As an example, Funny Face was quintessential V/M with exceptional difficulty which looked effortless, musicality with incredible attention to detail in the hands, in the feet, in the fingers, in the glances, in the way they played off each other and the music. I still see new things when I watch that program. And then there was Carmen, which will be talked about for many years to come. The things that I feel should be rewarded in ice dance, and are there in print in the rules, are not being scored. It's been a trend not just with V/M vs D/W. D/W read this trend better than V/M, and tactically planned their programs to win the Olympics. But the funny thing about trends: before you know it they change again. Next season, with 1 less lift and more time for dancing, and changes in the SD, should be interesting.

And btw...It is possible to appreciate both teams, and appreciate the effort both have expended (and we have all enjoyed) over so many years, and still prefer one over the other (either one), and still believe that the judging system needs some overhauling....

:thumbsup:I agree with everything you say, NorthernDancers. To me at Sochi VM were the better team in both the SD & FD - they are the quintessential ice dancers - & many agree they are the best dance team ever. While I appreciate DW's skills I've always found them lacking any kind of expression, their edges are shallow, they hop a lot, have little grace, mediocre lines & some their lifts (like the curve lift in the FS) are downright ugly - not to mention that their programs seem somehow recycled. When I watch them I don't see dance, I see pairs, and if that's the way ice dance is heading it's sad. But still, I do admire their athleticism.

As for the Canadian media during the Olympics -- what were they supposed to do after the L'Equipe article aired? Pretend they didn't see it? Not discuss it? Bev Smith is saying it like it probably is -- that's why some posters don't like her!

caitie · May 28, 2014

Beverly Smith does not "tell it like it is," GMAB. She is incredibly biased, and her articles were pure politicking for V/M. Which is fine, she is Canadian, she had a dog in the fight. But to see her pitched as an unbiased assessor of both teams' skillsets is ridiculous.

TMC · May 28, 2014

Wow - from some of the comments about D/W they should not have reached top ten at JWC this year.....

Skater Boy · May 28, 2014

Well, I don't think that is what anyone is saying or suggesting at the same time the comments by some and the scoring make it suggests V and M should have just retired before the Olympic season began and that D and W were miles ahead in every aspect. Which I don't think is true. Both teams are Olympic Champions and truly very good; now great I am not so sure. Scarily C and L from Italy could by "fluke" or luck end up with two world championships just like D and W and V and M now that would be a tragedy

I guess we have to hope WEaver and Poje can challenge the italians and close the gap.

Panpie · May 28, 2014

TMC said:
Wow - from some of the comments about D/W they should not have reached top ten at JWC this year.....

I agree. I don't understand the over-the-top criticism directed at Davis and White. Fine if someone doesn't like them, but there is no need to build Virtue/Moir up by tearing Davis/White down.

humbaba · May 28, 2014

Panpie said:
I don't understand the over-the-top criticism directed at Davis and White.

The birds only pick at the best fruit.

I swear I wish this site allowed sigis, so I could have that old saying as my signature. I think of it every time some irrational, bitter uberfan starts spewing venom. Some people become almost pathologically invested in the careers of their favorite skaters. Someone who is good enough to beat or seriously challenge their fave has to be torn down and discredited. I hope skaters take consolation in knowing if haters are bashing you it's probably because you're good enough to be perceived as a threat.

Isabel_O'Reilly · May 28, 2014

humbaba said:
The birds only pick at the best fruit.

I swear I wish this site allowed sigis, so I could have that old saying as my signature. I think of it every time some irrational, bitter uberfan starts spewing venom. Some people become almost pathologically invested in the careers of their favorite skaters. Someone who is good enough to beat or seriously challenge their fave has to be torn down and discredited. I hope skaters take consolation in knowing if haters are bashing you it's probably because you're good enough to be perceived as a threat.

I agree that some people can only tear down others to feel better which is why I don't ever say negative things about other skaters (I try and I'm pretty sure I haven't, anyway), even though I might not respond to their skating, but instead only say good things about those I enjoy watching. Tearing down others just makes you sound like you're unreasonable, even if that's not necessarily your intention. I do think that it's possible that fair judging was present at the Olympics, although many things make that hard to believe. We can say that the scores should have been closer without meaning to imply that D&W weren't deserving of the Gold.

NorthernDancers · May 28, 2014

Panpie said:
I agree. I don't understand the over-the-top criticism directed at Davis and White. Fine if someone doesn't like them, but there is no need to build Virtue/Moir up by tearing Davis/White down.

I haven't seen any over-the-top criticism of DW on this thread at all. In fact, the Beverly Smith article that started this thread makes a point of emphasizing the work and effort and contributions of DW. It's specifically about not making over-the-top criticism. Questioning the marks in Sochi, especially for the individual event, is not over-the-top criticism. It's not personal. There are some very reasonable and logical arguments that have been made as to how those marks might have been different, especially in threads from February and March. I think the crux of the discussion is the same as always - what one values in ice dance, the general direction that ice dance is or isn't taking, and whether judges are actually using the COP system as designed or judging based on their own biases and skaters' reputations. I do see both DW fans and VM fans falling into traditional lines of dogma, however, as Skater Boy has nicely highlighted. Time will tell how these teams are viewed over the long-term. And some of that reputation may yet change with pro careers on the horizon for both teams. I'm excited to see how both these teams develop as pros, and what they continue to contribute to the sport.

Alba · May 30, 2014

I would like to know, from someone who speaks russian, what TAT is saying here. Just out of curiosity.

V&M SD: http://www.ntvplus.ru/olympic/video...ma-tessy-virtu-i-skotta-mojra.xl#.U4gKKWdZrz0

D&W SD: http://www.ntvplus.ru/olympic/video...vymi-posle-korotkoj-programmy.xl#.U4gKnWdZrz0

This must be the most interesting part thoug. It's after the SD and she's doing some kind of analysis: http://www.ntvplus.ru/olympic/video...yu-raskatku-v-korotkom-tantse.xl#.U4gOF2dZrz0

Coltrocks12 · May 31, 2014

I just watched the 2013 Worlds and I must say I wish V/M had skated Carmen in Sochi. I think D/W may have still won but I think the difference would have been less than a point rather than the 4 or 5 point win for D/W. 2013 Worlds was fun to revisit as I loved both the Notre Dame de Paris program for Meryl and Charlie and the Carmen program for V/M. I like it better when these two teams are neck and neck. I will miss both if they retire.

Great Article About Virtue and Moir and Olympics

cruzceleste

Coltrocks12

cruzceleste

WeakAnkles

Isabel_O'Reilly

Alba

Ice Diva

caitie

TMC

Skater Boy

Panpie

humbaba

Isabel_O'Reilly

NorthernDancers

Alba

Coltrocks12

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