Skaters and CTE

Ven · May 22, 2014

Have there ever been discussions about former skaters suffering from long term brain impairment? The topic comes up a lot in soccer and football, among other sports these days. Studies have shown that athletes suffer brain injury from repetitive blows to the head that are not strong enough for a concussion and otherwise go unnoticed. For instance, heading a soccer ball or contacting helmets in football, even when the athlete does not suffer a concussion, repeating this activity throughout one's life has shown degenerative cognitive impairment.

I wonder if the same happens for figure skaters? Hitting their head on the ice or crashing into the boards? Even the violent forces of their spins?

Mathman · May 22, 2014

Interesting question! There have been a number of terrible accidents in pairs. One of the worst was suffered by Paul Binnebose, who fell backward on his head during a lift and sustained life-thretening brain trauma from which he never fully recovered. Elena Berezhnaya was kicked in the head during a spin and it was feared for weeks that she would never regain the ability to speak.

As far as repeated lesser stresses, I don't know if this has ever been studied.

Sandpiper · May 22, 2014

Lucinda Ruh also seems to have suffered from subtle concussions due to her spinning over the years. According to this article, anyway: http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Dr-Investigates-Figure-Skating-Dangers-138801459.html

76olympics · May 22, 2014

The Binnebose accident was awful; I would like an update on Paul. One of the things about skating is that it can be dangerous ( particularly pairs), but the skaters don't wear protective clothing most of the time, so the potential for injury is worse if something happens. I am surprised we don't hear about more serious falls.

Katia G said she fell a good bit while she was learning throws and ended up in the hospital once with a concussion later.

However, I think football and hockey have a far greater level of continued hard hits and blows in training and play. And I think it is mostly the fighters/enforcers in hockey who have shown the highest rates of CTE.

fadeevfan · May 22, 2014

Terrible news about Lucinda -- so awful! What a wonderful spinner she was.

And yes, a fascinating story. You wonder what more recent, fantastic spinners like Lambiel or Czisny may suffer down the line. Hope they retired early enough to start any necessary recovery!

caelum · May 22, 2014

Seems unlikely in figure skating. It's believed that CTE results from multiple recurring concussions or other types of head trauma (though CTE is a poorly understood disease - partly because it's only possible to affirmatively diagnose it postmortem, which obviously makes studying it difficult). It's hard to imagine under what scenario a figure skater could suffer from recurring traumas on a frequent enough basis to allow CTE to develop. Surely some minor concussion activity from spins, but this would probably be only problematic if you suffering from some underlying condition or predisposition that was aggravated. Sandpiper brought of Lucinda Ruh, but n =1 is not a convincing sample and the symptoms described in the article he links to could be attributable to any number of disorders unrelated to her figure skating history. Doing a quick Google search reveled an autobiography where Ruh admitted to suffering from "mini-seizures", likely referring to either absence seizure or simple partial seizures, these could easily explain a lot of her symptoms and both can be "triggered" by stressful brain activity (like messing with the blood flow to the brain, like when spinning) - and this wouldn't be caused by figure skating.

That said, figure skater's can suffer various brain traumas that can lead to long-term damage (mathman brings up a few examples), but this wouldn't be CTE and would be isolated based on especially bad injuries rather than recurring traumas, most likely.

Alba · May 22, 2014

Ven said:
Have there ever been discussions about former skaters suffering from long term brain impairment? The topic comes up a lot in soccer and football, among other sports these days. Studies have shown that athletes suffer brain injury from repetitive blows to the head that are not strong enough for a concussion and otherwise go unnoticed. For instance, heading a soccer ball or contacting helmets in football, even when the athlete does not suffer a concussion, repeating this activity throughout one's life has shown degenerative cognitive impairment.

I wonder if the same happens for figure skaters? Hitting their head on the ice or crashing into the boards? Even the violent forces of their spins?

I follow football (soccer for some) since I was a child, 1982. I never heard about such a thing coming from heading a ball though. :think:
Where did you read about that?

Ven · May 23, 2014

Alba said:
I follow football (soccer for some) since I was a child, 1982. I never heard about such a thing coming from heading a ball though. :think:
Where did you read about that?

I remember hearing about it a few months ago, here's the quickest article from google search:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/soccer-player-diagnosed-cte-brings-sports-risks/story?id=22697477

In another article I read last year and posted somewhere else online, researchers found that contrary to popular belief, athletes don't have to suffer concussions to have brain injuries. Previously, doctors thought the only athletes at risk were ones who had multiple concussions over and over again, or they received blows to the head before they recovered from a concussion.

It turns out that even repetitive, ordinary bumps into the head can cause brain injury. So a soccer player who heads the ball in practice and games throughout their career, or football players who make otherwise normal tackles and collisions with their helmet, or in this case possibly figure skaters who spin over and over again with the brain impacting the inside of their skull ... all of these athletes may be at risk for long term affects, even if they never had major head trauma.

Ven · May 23, 2014

Mathman said:
As far as repeated lesser stresses, I don't know if this has ever been studied.

Here's a study from last year:

Contact sports affect brain even without concussions, IU doctor’s study suggests

Athletes who play contact sports are shown to have changes in their brains after the season even if they have not suffered a concussion, a study in the journal Neurology reports.

...in the brains of the contact players, magnetic resonance imaging showed they had more damage to the white matter of their brains after a season of play.

In addition, the athletes who played contact sports did not do as well as predicted on tests of learning and memory after the seasons’ close.

Similar changes were not seen in the group of students who played noncontact sports.

http://www.indystar.com/story/life/...oncussions-iu-doctors-study-suggests/4058215/

I think the only question is what can be defined as contact and non-contact sports? In the study, the non-contact sports were track and field.

I think in figure skating, the spins would be the biggest thing to worry about.

silverfoxes · May 23, 2014

Evan Lysacek claims he has had at least 15-20 concussions from falls.

http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_26aw0a82/

anyanka · May 23, 2014

What about Totmianina? She said she remembers nothing about that frightening fall in 2004 but did she suffer anything long-term?

Alba · May 23, 2014

Ven said:
I remember hearing about it a few months ago, here's the quickest article from google search:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/soccer-player-diagnosed-cte-brings-sports-risks/story?id=22697477

In another article I read last year and posted somewhere else online, researchers found that contrary to popular belief, athletes don't have to suffer concussions to have brain injuries. Previously, doctors thought the only athletes at risk were ones who had multiple concussions over and over again, or they received blows to the head before they recovered from a concussion.

It turns out that even repetitive, ordinary bumps into the head can cause brain injury. So a soccer player who heads the ball in practice and games throughout their career, or football players who make otherwise normal tackles and collisions with their helmet, or in this case possibly figure skaters who spin over and over again with the brain impacting the inside of their skull ... all of these athletes may be at risk for long term affects, even if they never had major head trauma.

Thanks. Interesting to read.
I don't remember any case with football playes. I'll have a look now because I'm curious.

BusyMom · May 23, 2014

Alba said:
Thanks. Interesting to read.
I don't remember any case with football playes. I'll have a look now because I'm curious.

Peter Cech's collision with Stephen Hunt. He still needs to wear protective gear to these day. His replacement Carlo Cudicini also was unconscious at the same game. End up with John Terry switched to GK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeAsrVN1RU

Alba · May 23, 2014

BusyMom said:
Peter Cech's collision with Stephen Hunt. He still needs to wear protective gear to these day. His replacement Carlo Cudicini also was unconscious at the same game. End up with John Terry switched to GK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeAsrVN1RU

Yes I remember that but their case is different, if I understood the OP well.
We are speaking about suffering from long term brain impairment from repetitive blows to the head. In football players case caused by heading the ball, for example.
Cech underwent a surgery for a skull fracture Cudicini god injured as well but is he suffering from a long term brain impairment?
Football players often do get injured, like in other sports I suppose, and there is an issue for them with the heart attacks.
In Italy there was a big case about this, late 80s I think, and even today there is still the risk.
Morosini died just 2 years ago on the field and Fabrice Muamba came very near to die, but I've never heard about brain problems, described as above, among them. That's why I'm curious to know.

BusyMom · May 23, 2014

Cech already have. There are articles about his condition a few time a years. Mourinho talked about them a couple of time. His wife got mad because he didn't quit. Head injuries in football are from collision with another players, hitting the grounds or the goal post(GK tends to have that accidents). They are as bad as hitting the ice.

In the past, the diagnoses are always mislead. Concussions were normally ignore even the medical teams. Hitting your head with the balls all your career are nothing compare to bad falls or collisions.

Alba · May 23, 2014

BusyMom said:
Cech already have. There are articles about his condition a few time a years. Mourinho talked about them a couple of time. His wife got mad because he didn't quit. Head injuries in football are from collision with another players, hitting the grounds or the goal post(GK tends to have that accidents). They are as bad as hitting the ice.

I repeat. We are speaking about suffering from long term brain impairment from repetitive blows to the head that are not strong enough .
I know that having that kind of collision that Cech had most probably you'll end up with brain impairment. I also know that head injuries in football are from collision with another players, or the GK hitting the the goal post, for example, but brain impairment from like heading the ball? Never heard that.

BusyMom · May 23, 2014

OK I got your frustrations. Still mild blow doesn't just about hitting the ball. As I said repeatedly collision obviously cause brain damages even the minor one.

Also the OT stated about hitting the ball as an example not just the ONLY causes. No need to bite my head off. Some answers here are also about one bad accident.

OK....direct answer:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/06/11/repetitive-soccer-ball-heading-could-lead-to-brain-injury/

It was undetected or overseeing in the past but it still was a serious issues.

Alba · May 23, 2014

BusyMom said:
OK I got your frustrations. Still mild blow doesn't just about hitting the ball. As I said repeatedly collision obviously cause brain damages even the minor one. I will come back with the link later.

Also the OT stated about hitting the ball as an example not just the ONLY causes. No need to bite my head off.

OK....direct answer: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/06/11/repetitive-soccer-ball-heading-could-lead-to-brain-injury/

Don't worry, no frustration at all. Just repeating something because it looked like I was not making myself clear enoguh.

Also the OT stated about hitting the ball as an example not just the ONLY causes.

But I was asking about that specific example, that's why I quoted that. I know very well that hitting the head can cause brain damages. Can even cause death for that matter.
Normal people as well, who are not athletes, if they hit their head can have those damages. So I was curious about that specific case and asked about it.

OK....direct answer: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/0...-brain-injury/

Direct answers are better. Thank you.

BusyMom · May 23, 2014

Ven said:
Have there ever been discussions about former skaters suffering from long term brain impairment? The topic comes up a lot in soccer and football, among other sports these days. Studies have shown that athletes suffer brain injury from repetitive blows to the head that are not strong enough for a concussion and otherwise go unnoticed. For instance, heading a soccer ball or contacting helmets in football, even when the athlete does not suffer a concussion, repeating this activity throughout one's life has shown degenerative cognitive impairment.

I wonder if the same happens for figure skaters? Hitting their head on the ice or crashing into the boards? Even the violent forces of their spins?

Your question is clear enough but I also answer to the main topic at the same time. It might be mistake from my part which my post wasn't clear enough. Sorry about that.

Alba · May 23, 2014

BusyMom said:
Your question is clear enough but I also answer to the main topic at the same time. It might be mistake from my part which my post wasn't clear enough. Sorry about that.

No problem. It's just that I really was curious about that heading the ball thing. In fact in your link it says “What’s unique about this study is this is the first study ever to quantify heading as an exposure,”

Very interesting study. Never thought about it but the ball is quite heavy indeed, and as the article states the real bulk of soccer heading happens during practice sessions, so it does make sense.

Skaters and CTE

Ven

Match Penalty

Mathman

Sandpiper

76olympics

fadeevfan

caelum

Alba

Ven

Match Penalty

Ven

Match Penalty

silverfoxes

anyanka

Alba

BusyMom

Alba

BusyMom

Alba

BusyMom

Alba

BusyMom

Alba

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