Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

I wouldn't say she has deep edges. She certainly opts for transitions and in-between moves, and it's ambitious but sometimes makes her programs a bit staccato/choppy. And she doesn't always "hit" the edges in her turns/transitions, the way Kim/Kostner do.

I found her FS this year not to be beautiful or elegant, but rather quirky... it still drew me in, but it was a stark contrast to the maturity and fluidity of Kim and Kostner. Same with the SP... Kim's was emotional, Kostner's was ethereal and Sotnikova's had attack/attitude.

kwanatic · Jun 5, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I wouldn't say she has deep edges. She certainly opts for transitions and in-between moves, and it's ambitious but sometimes makes her programs a bit staccato/choppy. And she doesn't always "hit" the edges in her turns/transitions, the way Kim/Kostner do.

I found her FS this year not to be beautiful or elegant, but rather quirky... it still drew me in, but it was a stark contrast to the maturity and fluidity of Kim and Kostner. Same with the SP... Kim's was emotional, Kostner's was ethereal and Sotnikova's had attack/attitude.

I don't think her edges are deep as in a "deep as Carolina's" way, but to say she rarely does more than 3 crossovers at a time, she gets a lot of speed and is able to carry that speed (if not gain speed) through transitions. With the top vets gone, I'd put Adelina's skating skills near if not at the top of this post-Sochi group.

I agree that she packs so many transitions into her program that sometimes it looks slightly choppy/unfinished. Hopefully she'll continue to refine her skating which should take care of that.

I didn't mind Adelina's FS this year, compared to last year where I liked the middle part but hated the rest of it. This year's FS was interesting but not in a bad way. The music gets a little too busy at the end for my tastes BUT she matched the energy and really performed which made it enjoyable for me. Not everything is my cuppa but if you perform the hell out of it, 9 times out of 10 I'll still enjoy it. She did just that and that's why I enjoyed her FS.

I do think Adelina needs a serious overhaul though. Her appearance on the ice is a little tacky: too dark tights and gloves, weird dresses, wearing all of those beaded bracelets...hopefully with all of the money she's getting from her Olympic win, she'll hire a good stylist for next season...hopefully.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

I actually think there are other skaters like Pogorilaya and Edmunds who have lovelier skating skills.

Hopefully now that she's getting the high marks, she'll put less transitions in and focus on putting more refinement in her skating.

And YES, her appearance is tacky with the nude gloves (which are still apparent) and odd dresses. A stylist would help her immensely.

sky_fly20 · Jun 5, 2014

Zijun all the way !!
why are we bringing up Osmond whose hype lasted for less than 6 months ? and lost the FS to her 2nd tier teammate ?

kwanatic · Jun 5, 2014

sky_fly20 said:
Zijun all the way !!
why are we bringing up Osmond whose hype lasted for less than 6 months ? and lost the FS to her 2nd tier teammate ?

Aaah, there you are! I was wondering where you were Sky_fly. :biggrin:

Considering you never pass up an opportunity to trash her, I figured you'd be the first person to chime in on anything involving Kaetlyn.

kwanatic · Jun 5, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I actually think there are other skaters like Pogorilaya and Edmunds who have lovelier skating skills.

Hopefully now that she's getting the high marks, she'll put less transitions in and focus on putting more refinement in her skating.

And YES, her appearance is tacky with the nude gloves (which are still apparent) and odd dresses. A stylist would help her immensely.

Edmunds' SS are really good too. Definitely right in line with Gracie, though given her TR I'd put her slightly ahead of Gracie.

Pogo's are good too but Adelina has much better lines by comparison. Anna needs better posture and much more extension through her legs. As of now she has a sort of clunky appearance IMO. I'm a big fan of Anna though. She's a great technician, I love her competitiveness and boy is she supermodel gorg!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

sky_fly20 said:
Zijun all the way !!
why are we bringing up Osmond whose hype lasted for less than 6 months ? and lost the FS to her 2nd tier teammate ?

You mean like how you hyped Gracie to win Sochi/Worlds and she couldn't even win a medal...

Speaking of losing the FS to 2nd tier teammates -- remember the US Classic when Gold lost to both Hicks and Cesario in the FS (and 2nd to Hicks overall)... not to mention she lost to both her teammates in the FS at Worlds? :rolleye:

FYI, Li lost to Osmond at both Worlds and the Olympics.

sky_fly20 · Jun 5, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
You mean like how you hyped Gracie to win Sochi/Worlds and she couldn't even win a medal...

Speaking of losing the FS to 2nd tier teammates -- remember the US Classic when Gold lost to both Hicks and Cesario in the FS (and 2nd to Hicks overall)... not to mention she lost to both her teammates in the FS at Worlds?

FYI, Li lost to Osmond at both Worlds and the Olympics.

Grace finished an impressive 4th place at the Olympics beating Julia
highest ranked NA at 2014 Worlds and s the first US lady to break the 200 mark in total score, a feat even Kwan did not achieve

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

kwanatic said:
Edmunds' SS are really good too. Definitely right in line with Gracie, though given her TR I'd put her slightly ahead of Gracie.

Pogo's are good too but Adelina has much better lines by comparison. Anna needs better posture and much more extension through her legs. As of now she has a sort of clunky appearance IMO. I'm a big fan of Anna though. She's a great technician, I love her competitiveness and boy is she supermodel gorg!

I think Gracie's arms, posture and movements are more elegant, but Edmunds' overall skating fundamentals are better.

In some of Anna's exhibitions you can really see that she has excellent edges and basics... if she spent more time refining and completing her movements, I think she has a real shot at being in the top 3 Russians over the next quad.

loiza · Jun 5, 2014

sky_fly20 said:
Grace finished an impressive 4th place at the Olympics beating Julia
highest ranked NA at 2014 Worlds and s the first US lady to break the 200 mark in total score, a feat even Kwan did not achieve

Gracie finished 4th because Yulia and Mao failed.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

sky_fly20 said:
Grace finished an impressive 4th place at the Olympics beating Julia
highest ranked NA at 2014 Worlds and s the first US lady to break the 200 mark in total score, a feat even Kwan did not achieve

You're honestly comparing Kwan's scores in a system that was just fledgling (with elements that were worth less), when 9's in PCS weren't handed out like candy how they are now? Until Kim at Worlds in 2009, EVERY lady scored less than 200 points.

And everyone knows her 200+ mark in Sochi was manufactured by Frank Carroll. Look at her PCS in her clean team FS versus her PCS in her individual FS with a fall - 6.5 points higher... what a joke. Her win over Julia was well deserved, but Julia had 3 major errors (including a downgraded fall), so it's not that impressive. As we saw in the team event, a clean Julia mops the floor with Gracie (by 12 points) and the rest of the field. Also, in terms of overall impressiveness, she was over 9 points from bronze and over 19 points from gold... and you had slated her to WIN. :laugh:

Sandpiper · Jun 5, 2014

sky_fly20 said:
Grace finished an impressive 4th place at the Olympics beating Julia
highest ranked NA at 2014 Worlds and s the first US lady to break the 200 mark in total score, a feat even Kwan did not achieve

By the time IJS came around, Kwan was already eaten up by injuries. Not to mention how stingy scores were back then. How is her not breaking 200 points relevant in any shape or form?

I actually do agree with the sentiment that Osmond might get nowhere, and I can see Daleman passing her in the years to come. But that doesn't mean she's some kind of joke. Especially since I can see Polina passing Gracie in the same way, and Gracie has been even more hyped than Osmond.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

loiza said:
Gracie finished 4th because Yulia and Mao failed.

As Worlds showed, when Mao and Julia are on, they can easily beat Gold. Even a wayyy off Kostner beats Gold. Gold was also beaten by the 8th-ranked Russian.

Also, Gold essentially tied Wagner/Suzuki. Had Wagner's second 3F been clean or her PCS been scaled the way the other skaters were, or if Akiko had been even slightly better than her bomb of a FS, they would have both pushed Gold down to 7th with her FS. Gold should have actually been behind Park in the FS, too.

sky_fly20 · Jun 5, 2014

Sandpiper said:
I actually do agree with the sentiment that Osmond might get nowhere, and I can see Daleman passing her in the years to come. But that doesn't mean she's some kind of joke. Especially since I can see Polina passing Gracie in the same way, and Gracie has been even more hyped than Osmond.

well thats a given about Osmond she has only 3T as her mot reliable 3-3 and falls always in the FS, Daleman is a better technician and has a lutz, wont be long before Daleman will pass her but to say the same to Gracie is unfair, Gracie finished 4th at the Olympics, the first American to score above the 200+ mark, has been beating her teammates in total scores even with errors, so I dont see the comparison with Gracie with Osmond

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

Sandpiper said:
By the time IJS came around, Kwan was already eaten up by injuries. Not to mention how stingy scores were back then. How is her not breaking 200 points relevant in any shape or form?

I actually do agree with the sentiment that Osmond might get nowhere, and I can see Daleman passing her in the years to come. But that doesn't mean she's some kind of joke. Especially since I can see Polina passing Gracie in the same way, and Gracie has been even more hyped than Osmond.

And at least Osmond has international wins at Skate Canada and Nebelhorn. I can picture Daleman being very competitive with Osmond in upcoming seasons. But I'd like to see what Osmond can do in an uninjured season with 2 GP slots, which is what hopefully this upcoming season will be.

And yes, I can also totally see Edmunds pass Gracie. She's certainly the more consistent and technically ambitious of the two. Once she gets her PCS up to snuff, Gold will have a hard time holding her off. If not for Gold's 4 point PCS advantage in the SP and and 7 point PCS advantage in the FS, Edmunds would have easily beat her at Worlds. I mean, Edmunds got a mere 60 points of PCS in her FS, when she deserved at least 64-65, and Gold deserved 64-65 herself given her major errors.

Although, one great season a skater does not make so I'm also not going to have too high expectations of Edmunds either.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

sky_fly20 said:
well thats a given about Osmond she has only 3T as her mot reliable 3-3 and falls always in the FS, Daleman is a better technician and has a lutz, wont be long before Daleman will pass her but to say the same to Gracie is unfair, Gracie finished 4th at the Olympics, the first American to score above the 200+ mark, has been beating her teammates in total scores even with errors, so I dont see the comparison with Gracie with Osmond

She landed a 3F+3T in the SP at Worlds... after a season plagued by injury. Osmond has a lutz too, although it's a flutz... although given Gracie's lip I hope you won't be so harsh on her.

As for always falling in the FS, Gracie fell in every competition this past season (well, save for Nationals where she had a stepout with both hands down to save her from falling).

chuckm · Jun 5, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Yremember the US Classic when Gold lost to both Hicks and Cesario in the FS (and 2nd to Hicks overall)... not to mention she lost to both her teammates in the FS at Worlds?

How you start the season doesn't count for much---where you place at the major competitions at season's end is what determines your status and your world ranking. Gracie started off poorly in both the 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 seasons, but ended both quite well, finishing 6th at 2013 Worlds and 3rd at 2013 WTT, and 4th at Sochi Olympics and 5th at 2014 Worlds.

If we're going to look for woeful examples of not living up to hype, let's recall the fall of 2012 when Kaetlyn Osmond won Nebelhorn and SC, beating Gold, who had won silver at JW 2012 to Kaetlyn's 10th place. Kaetlyn was touted to the skies as the next Canadian Olympic medalist. Unfortunately, after a great start, she faltered as the season progressed, finishing behind Gold at 2013 4CC, 8th to Gold's 6th at 2013 Worlds, 7th to Gold's 3rd at 2013 WTT.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jun 5, 2014

Still doesn't change the fact that, like Osmond at Worlds (coming off injury no less), she lost the FS to not one but two second-tier skaters last season. Or the fact that Edmunds and Wagner also beat her in the FS at Worlds, and she still lucked out with uber-high PCS to stay ahead of Suzuki/Wagner.

chuckm · Jun 5, 2014

Gracie was in the final flight after the SP at Worlds--she landed a clean 3z+3t. Gracie was 6.67 points ahead of Wagner (whose 3/3 was <<) and 9.72 points ahead of Edmunds (who put a hand down on her 3/3, which was <). Both may have finished ahead of her in the FS, but not by enough points to pass her overall. Gracie did NOT win based on uber-high PCS: Ashley's PCS score in the FS was .06 HIGHER than Gracie's.

Gracie beat Ashley and Polina overall because her short program was that much better than Ashley's and Polina's, and her free skate wasn't that much worse than theirs.

I don't see how it matters if a skater loses a segment but comes out ahead in the competition overall. Or does it matter only when it is a US skater? I seem to recall that Osmond finished 5th in the SP at the Challenge this season......

sky_fly20 · Jun 5, 2014

chuckm said:
If we're going to look for woeful examples of not living up to hype, let's recall the fall of 2012 when Kaetlyn Osmond won Nebelhorn and SC, beating Gold, who had won silver at JW 2012 to Kaetlyn's 10th place. Kaetlyn was touted to the skies as the next Canadian Olympic medalist. Unfortunately, after a great start, she faltered as the season progressed, finishing behind Gold at 2013 4CC, 8th to Gold's 6th at 2013 Worlds, 7th to Gold's 3rd at 2013 WTT.

agreed, it was the Glorious Osmond who didnt live up to her overhype
let alone lasting less than 6 months :laugh:

Gracie usually peaks later in the season and does well in big competitions when it matters the most

Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry

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