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Thread: Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    Grace finished an impressive 4th place at the Olympics beating Julia
    highest ranked NA at 2014 Worlds and s the first US lady to break the 200 mark in total score, a feat even Kwan did not achieve
    You're honestly comparing Kwan's scores in a system that was just fledgling (with elements that were worth less), when 9's in PCS weren't handed out like candy how they are now? Until Kim at Worlds in 2009, EVERY lady scored less than 200 points.

    And everyone knows her 200+ mark in Sochi was manufactured by Frank Carroll. Look at her PCS in her clean team FS versus her PCS in her individual FS with a fall - 6.5 points higher... what a joke. Her win over Julia was well deserved, but Julia had 3 major errors (including a downgraded fall), so it's not that impressive. As we saw in the team event, a clean Julia mops the floor with Gracie (by 12 points) and the rest of the field. Also, in terms of overall impressiveness, she was over 9 points from bronze and over 19 points from gold... and you had slated her to WIN.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    Grace finished an impressive 4th place at the Olympics beating Julia
    highest ranked NA at 2014 Worlds and s the first US lady to break the 200 mark in total score, a feat even Kwan did not achieve
    By the time IJS came around, Kwan was already eaten up by injuries. Not to mention how stingy scores were back then. How is her not breaking 200 points relevant in any shape or form?

    I actually do agree with the sentiment that Osmond might get nowhere, and I can see Daleman passing her in the years to come. But that doesn't mean she's some kind of joke. Especially since I can see Polina passing Gracie in the same way, and Gracie has been even more hyped than Osmond.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by loiza View Post
    Gracie finished 4th because Yulia and Mao failed.
    As Worlds showed, when Mao and Julia are on, they can easily beat Gold. Even a wayyy off Kostner beats Gold. Gold was also beaten by the 8th-ranked Russian.

    Also, Gold essentially tied Wagner/Suzuki. Had Wagner's second 3F been clean or her PCS been scaled the way the other skaters were, or if Akiko had been even slightly better than her bomb of a FS, they would have both pushed Gold down to 7th with her FS. Gold should have actually been behind Park in the FS, too.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post

    I actually do agree with the sentiment that Osmond might get nowhere, and I can see Daleman passing her in the years to come. But that doesn't mean she's some kind of joke. Especially since I can see Polina passing Gracie in the same way, and Gracie has been even more hyped than Osmond.
    well thats a given about Osmond she has only 3T as her mot reliable 3-3 and falls always in the FS, Daleman is a better technician and has a lutz, wont be long before Daleman will pass her but to say the same to Gracie is unfair, Gracie finished 4th at the Olympics, the first American to score above the 200+ mark, has been beating her teammates in total scores even with errors, so I dont see the comparison with Gracie with Osmond

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    By the time IJS came around, Kwan was already eaten up by injuries. Not to mention how stingy scores were back then. How is her not breaking 200 points relevant in any shape or form?

    I actually do agree with the sentiment that Osmond might get nowhere, and I can see Daleman passing her in the years to come. But that doesn't mean she's some kind of joke. Especially since I can see Polina passing Gracie in the same way, and Gracie has been even more hyped than Osmond.
    And at least Osmond has international wins at Skate Canada and Nebelhorn. I can picture Daleman being very competitive with Osmond in upcoming seasons. But I'd like to see what Osmond can do in an uninjured season with 2 GP slots, which is what hopefully this upcoming season will be.

    And yes, I can also totally see Edmunds pass Gracie. She's certainly the more consistent and technically ambitious of the two. Once she gets her PCS up to snuff, Gold will have a hard time holding her off. If not for Gold's 4 point PCS advantage in the SP and and 7 point PCS advantage in the FS, Edmunds would have easily beat her at Worlds. I mean, Edmunds got a mere 60 points of PCS in her FS, when she deserved at least 64-65, and Gold deserved 64-65 herself given her major errors.

    Although, one great season a skater does not make so I'm also not going to have too high expectations of Edmunds either.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    well thats a given about Osmond she has only 3T as her mot reliable 3-3 and falls always in the FS, Daleman is a better technician and has a lutz, wont be long before Daleman will pass her but to say the same to Gracie is unfair, Gracie finished 4th at the Olympics, the first American to score above the 200+ mark, has been beating her teammates in total scores even with errors, so I dont see the comparison with Gracie with Osmond
    She landed a 3F+3T in the SP at Worlds... after a season plagued by injury. Osmond has a lutz too, although it's a flutz... although given Gracie's lip I hope you won't be so harsh on her.

    As for always falling in the FS, Gracie fell in every competition this past season (well, save for Nationals where she had a stepout with both hands down to save her from falling).

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Yremember the US Classic when Gold lost to both Hicks and Cesario in the FS (and 2nd to Hicks overall)... not to mention she lost to both her teammates in the FS at Worlds?
    How you start the season doesn't count for much---where you place at the major competitions at season's end is what determines your status and your world ranking. Gracie started off poorly in both the 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 seasons, but ended both quite well, finishing 6th at 2013 Worlds and 3rd at 2013 WTT, and 4th at Sochi Olympics and 5th at 2014 Worlds.

    If we're going to look for woeful examples of not living up to hype, let's recall the fall of 2012 when Kaetlyn Osmond won Nebelhorn and SC, beating Gold, who had won silver at JW 2012 to Kaetlyn's 10th place. Kaetlyn was touted to the skies as the next Canadian Olympic medalist. Unfortunately, after a great start, she faltered as the season progressed, finishing behind Gold at 2013 4CC, 8th to Gold's 6th at 2013 Worlds, 7th to Gold's 3rd at 2013 WTT.

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    Still doesn't change the fact that, like Osmond at Worlds (coming off injury no less), she lost the FS to not one but two second-tier skaters last season. Or the fact that Edmunds and Wagner also beat her in the FS at Worlds, and she still lucked out with uber-high PCS to stay ahead of Suzuki/Wagner.

  9. #39
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    Gracie was in the final flight after the SP at Worlds--she landed a clean 3z+3t. Gracie was 6.67 points ahead of Wagner (whose 3/3 was <<) and 9.72 points ahead of Edmunds (who put a hand down on her 3/3, which was <). Both may have finished ahead of her in the FS, but not by enough points to pass her overall. Gracie did NOT win based on uber-high PCS: Ashley's PCS score in the FS was .06 HIGHER than Gracie's.

    Gracie beat Ashley and Polina overall because her short program was that much better than Ashley's and Polina's, and her free skate wasn't that much worse than theirs.

    I don't see how it matters if a skater loses a segment but comes out ahead in the competition overall. Or does it matter only when it is a US skater? I seem to recall that Osmond finished 5th in the SP at the Challenge this season......

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post

    If we're going to look for woeful examples of not living up to hype, let's recall the fall of 2012 when Kaetlyn Osmond won Nebelhorn and SC, beating Gold, who had won silver at JW 2012 to Kaetlyn's 10th place. Kaetlyn was touted to the skies as the next Canadian Olympic medalist. Unfortunately, after a great start, she faltered as the season progressed, finishing behind Gold at 2013 4CC, 8th to Gold's 6th at 2013 Worlds, 7th to Gold's 3rd at 2013 WTT.
    agreed, it was the Glorious Osmond who didnt live up to her overhype
    let alone lasting less than 6 months

    Gracie usually peaks later in the season and does well in big competitions when it matters the most

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    agreed, it was the Glorious Osmond who didnt live up to her overhype
    let alone lasting less than 6 months

    Gracie usually peaks later in the season and does well in big competitions when it matters the most
    She failed to medal at Worlds or the Olympics. You hyped her to win. Speaking of overhype...

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Gracie was in the final flight after the SP at Worlds--she landed a clean 3z+3t. Gracie was 6.67 points ahead of Wagner (whose 3/3 was <<) and 9.72 points ahead of Edmunds (who put a hand down on her 3/3, which was <). Both may have finished ahead of her in the FS, but not by enough points to pass her overall. Gracie did NOT win based on uber-high PCS: Ashley's PCS score in the FS was .06 HIGHER than Gracie's.

    Gracie beat Ashley and Polina overall because her short program was that much better than Ashley's and Polina's, and her free skate wasn't that much worse than theirs.

    I don't see how it matters if a skater loses a segment but comes out ahead in the competition overall. Or does it matter only when it is a US skater? I seem to recall that Osmond finished 5th in the SP at the Challenge this season......
    Look at her PCS in the team FS and look at her FS at Worlds. Which do you think was the superior skate? Well, the one at Worlds got almost 5 points higher PCS. That's right, a clean FS gets less PCS than a FS with tight jumps, a singled axel and a downgraded fall on a double axel which prevented a triple from being attempted.

    Ashley on the other hand, didn't make any visible errors and skated with much more conviction than Gold. Gold's PCS should have been no more than her PCS at the Olympics where she skated clean in the team -- like, that's intuitive... she should have lost to Suzuki and Wagner, but Wagner's PCS being held back and Gold's being held up ensured that (along with Suzuki supremely bombing as bad as Gold did).

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    agreed, it was the Glorious Osmond who didnt live up to her overhype
    let alone lasting less than 6 months
    You make it sound like Osmond is 30 years old. She is young and she has plenty of time.
    Besides, she was injured this year, so not living up to her "overhype" it's a false statement to make, as usual with you.
    That girl is born to perform and she has some of the best, if not the best, transitions in ladies but never get credits for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    You make it sound like Osmond is 30 years old. She is young and she has plenty of time.
    Besides, she was injured this year, so not living up to her "overhype" it's a false statement to make, as usual with you.
    That girl is born to perform and she has some of the best, if not the best, transitions in ladies but never get credits for it.
    Maybe she would get more credit for her transitions if she could get through her free skates without disruptive falls. She has never been able to do so over the past two seasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Look at her PCS in the team FS and look at her FS at Worlds. Which do you think was the superior skate? Well, the one at Worlds got almost 5 points higher PCS. That's right, a clean FS gets less PCS than a FS with tight jumps, a singled axel and a downgraded fall on a double axel which prevented a triple from being attempted.

    Ashley on the other hand, didn't make any visible errors and skated with much more conviction than Gold. Gold's PCS should have been no more than her PCS at the Olympics where she skated clean in the team -- like, that's intuitive... she should have lost to Suzuki and Wagner, but Wagner's PCS being held back and Gold's being held up ensured that (along with Suzuki supremely bombing as bad as Gold did).
    In order of finish, free skate:
    3f, 2a+3t<, 3s, 3lo^2a, 3ze, 3lo, 3f<+2t+2t WAGNER 5 triples
    3z+3t, 3f+1lo<+3s, 2a, 3f, 3z, 3lo+2t, 2a EDMUNDS 7 triples
    3z, 2a+2t, 3f+3t↓,1lo, 1f, 2a, 3s+2t+1lo KOSTNER 3 triples
    3z+3t, 1a, 3lo, 3fe, 3z, 3s+2t+2t, 2a<<↓ GOLD 6 triples
    2ze+2t+2lo<, 2a+3t<<, 3z, 3f<, 3lo, 3s+2t, 3s SUZUKI 4 triples

    Gold landed 6 triples, the same as Lipnitskaia. Only Pogo and Polina landed more (7). All of the other skaters (including the winner, Asada) landed fewer triples. So if you choose to call that bombing, go ahead.

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