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Thread: Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry

  1. #76
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    CanadianSkaterGuy, the point is not to argue whether or not Lipnitskaya "delivered all seasons or not". Yes, we recognize that she fell a few times, but OVERALL she gives the impression of a very consistent competitor, much more so than Kaetlyn. And that's why some of us believe she is able to generate higher PCS than Kaetlyn. The point is not even to compare her to Kaetlyn (I'm a MUCH bigger Osmond fan than Lip fan), but she's just one example of how skaters achieve increasingly higher PCS by consistently delivering from competition to competition for a prolonged period of time. No one is saying she's THE most consistent skater of all time, but by today's standards, she IS one of the most consistent competitors out there, consistently landing her 3z/3t (flutz and subpar technique and all). You don't need to have an absolutely fall-free season to be called a consistent skater. And yes, she does have a very strong federation backing her, but so does Kaetlyn. And it's much harder to justify inflated PCS due to whatever reasons when you skate a 3-jump FS as opposed to a 7-jump FS, regardless of how strong your fed is. Unless maybe if you are Kostner or Chan.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's ludicrous to think Lipnitskaia's PCS boost was all program related. She got a personal best PCS at CoR for 3 triples... her flawed individual Sochi FS was a personal best PCS too, compared to her clean team FS the week before. How does a skater go from 59 PCS for a clean FS at Finlandia to 70 PCS for a FS with a fall and a stepout in Sochi?! Must be the dress.
    To be fair, at the time of Finlandia she was viewed as the third likeliest Russian to make the team, and I thought she had no shot to get past Adelina and Liza. By the Sochi Ladies' event she was firmly a medal contender, perhaps a strong favorite for silver based on how the women skated in the team event. The PCS rise reflects that. She had a lot of strong performances this year and she built the momentum in the PCS marks; she wasn't perfect every time but her results were outstanding. Four wins and two silver medals against strong fields will do wonders for your PCS

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't get why you're comparing Julia with Osmond... I acknowledge that Julia is far more consistent than Osmond. I was addressing the false statement that Julia delivered all season, which merited her PCS boost.

    It's ludicrous to think Lipnitskaia's PCS boost was all program related. She got a personal best PCS at CoR for 3 triples... her flawed individual Sochi FS was a personal best PCS too, compared to her clean team FS the week before. How does a skater go from 59 PCS for a clean FS at Finlandia to 70 PCS for a FS with a fall and a stepout in Sochi?! Must be the dress.

    As for Hanyu, he's fallen on his 4T and 3F this season (remember the Worlds SP and the Olympics FS?). He's also landed the 4S prior to Worlds, btw.

    "The only one in that lumped group who won no international medal this season was guess who?"
    Ooh, lemme guess, the only one in that lumped group who was injured and didn't even skate half of last season?

    The point of that "lumping" was that there were plenty of skaters last season who failed to produce clean skates most of the season, so to hold it against Osmond (who was coming off injury at that) is ridiculously lame. The closest skater who competed all of last season who skated the closest to clean and consistent was Lipnitskaia, and even she lost Russian Nationals due to an error in her SP, fell in her Olympics SP/FS, and fell in her Worlds FS. That's hardly "delivering all season", even she had the most clean competitions of any singles skater last season.

    And if you wanna give brownie points to Gold's SC bronze for holding off Gao/Lacoste/Hicks and Li's 4CC bronze for holding off Hicks/Imai/Chartrand, be my guest.
    YOU were the one doing the lumping, and you lumped Wagner (who did skate clean most of the early season and again at Worlds) in with the inconsistent skaters. What was with that?

    And YOU were the one comparing Lipnitskaia and Hanyu's PCS with Osmond's, saying that they were getting high PCS scores when they weren't skating clean. I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about "poor" 6-triple free skates when a skater who has only 6 planned triples can't even deliver 5.

    Yes, we KNOW Osmond was coming off injury this season. But what about last season? No clean free skates then when she wasn't injured. 5 triples at Nebelhorn and SC 2012, but only 3 at 4CC, and 4 at Worlds 2013 and 4 at WTT 2013. Judges usually expect to see performances improve as the season goes on, not fall off and get worse as they did in 2012-2013. Why would judges be ready to reward her with high PCS scores this season based on what she did last season?

  4. #79
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    I'm sorry, but ...

    Katya v. Debi 86-88 was a rivalry
    Michelle v. Tara 97-98 was a rivalry
    Michelle v. Irina 98-02 was a rivalry
    Losha v. Zhenya 98-02 was a rivalry (my fave of them all)
    B/S v S/P 00-02 was a rivalry
    Mao v. Yuna 06-10 (and into this quad somewhat) was a rivalry
    Adelina v. Yulia this season was a rivalry
    Chan v. Yuzu 12-14 was a rivalry
    V/W v. D/W 09-14 was a rivalry

    I hardly think two middle-of-the-pack skaters (who are great athletes in their own right) who happen to have similar results constitute a "rivalry".

  5. #80
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    ^I agree with the point you're making, but:

    Chan v. Yuzu 12-14 was a rivalry
    I think they were only rivals for the past season (though they qualify as a rivalry far more than Li vs. Osmond ). Before that, Chan vs. Takahashi was the rivalry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    CSG now even attempting to downtalk Julia's consistency or compare Osmond at all to Julia in the consistency area. Always some new bit of comedy each day from CSG (to go along with Duhamel & Radford winning silver at the 2018 Games, amazing how much free comedy this poster delivers for all per day).
    Says the one who says Savchenko/Massot have the potential to be a strong contender for gold, when we haven't even seen them skate yet. You're as hilarious as sky_fly suggesting Bazarova/Deputat will challenge V/T and surpass S/K, when they haven't even skated yet.

    And I wasn't downtalking Julia's consistency - I said she's the most consistent skater this season, and that she's more consistent than Osmond... however, I also challenged the notion that "Julia delivered all season", as chuckm fallaciously suggested. She lost Russian Nationals, and she fell in both segments of the individual event at the Olympics.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyanka View Post
    I'm sorry, but ...

    Chan v. Yuzu 12-14 was a rivalry
    Sorry but it's more like the second half of 13-14 was a rivalry. Prior to this season, Chan was 4-1 against Hanyu. Their head to head record is now 6-3 in favour of Chan. This season was a rivalry, and only a "rivalry" at the GPF onwards, seeing as how Chan easily defeated Hanyu in both GP events (by 28 and 32 points).

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    YOU were the one doing the lumping, and you lumped Wagner (who did skate clean most of the early season and again at Worlds) in with the inconsistent skaters. What was with that?

    And YOU were the one comparing Lipnitskaia and Hanyu's PCS with Osmond's, saying that they were getting high PCS scores when they weren't skating clean. I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about "poor" 6-triple free skates when a skater who has only 6 planned triples can't even deliver 5.

    Yes, we KNOW Osmond was coming off injury this season. But what about last season? No clean free skates then when she wasn't injured. 5 triples at Nebelhorn and SC 2012, but only 3 at 4CC, and 4 at Worlds 2013 and 4 at WTT 2013. Judges usually expect to see performances improve as the season goes on, not fall off and get worse as they did in 2012-2013. Why would judges be ready to reward her with high PCS scores this season based on what she did last season?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    She did however deliver clean skates at Skate Canada, Euros, and the Sochi team event, and was thus the most consistent skater this season. But it's inaccurate to say she delivered all season. And of course she's way more consistent than Osmond/Gold/Wagner/Li/Murakami.
    Go back to my OP before you keep spewing your drivel. I was pointing out that Osmond/Gold/Wagner/Li/Murakami are all inconsistent compared to her. If you're SO offended that Li is included in that as well as Murakami, both of them achieved poor results due to inconsistency -- Murakami's only good skate was at 4CC, and she was as bad as Osmond at Worlds/Olympics. Li was worse than Osmond at both Worlds/Olympics - but somehow a bronze at 4CC holding off Chartrand/Hicks/Imai makes up for it according to you. Wagner, even with her GP successes, never delivered a clean competition all season, although she did have some success with clean SPs including the 3-3 earlier in the year.

    And if you're going after Osmond for having no clean free skates, newsflash: most of the skaters - even in the top 10 - don't have clean freeskates/competitions.

    The PCS point was also in reference to the fact that falls don't necessarily translate into ones PCS stagnating, as we saw with Julia at CoR and Sochi Individual, and Hanyu at many competitions where he fell and still saw gradual PCS increases. Osmond's issue holding back her PCS, other than jump consistency, is her overall skating and her lack of actually competing (which generally sees a rise in a skater's PCS over time). To lambaste her for having falls in her debut season on the GP (where she still won a GP event), or criticize her for falls in competitions this past season when she was dealing with injuries, is pretty pathetic... especially when it's not like her other competitors are clean whistles themselves or immune to falls (Gold, Lipnitskaia) or a protocol sheet filled with UR calls (Li, Wagner, Murakami). No skater is supremely consistent (other than maybe Kim). Stop making it seem like Osmond is the only inconsistent one when rarely anyone other than Julia (and maybe Radionova) in the women's field skates clean more often than they make errors.

  9. #84
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    Maybe Gold and Wagner make errors, but they usually deliver more than 4 triples in their freeskates. Gold usually delivers 6, and Wagner, at least 5. Skaters have to deliver technical content to make judges sit up and take notice.

    Yes, Osmond started off well in the 2012-2013 season, but capping the season off in the late-season major competitions with 3 and 4 triples, as Osmond did when she was not injured, do not help a skater build a strong reputation and with it, good PCS scores.

    Gold has not had good GPs, and neither has Sotnikova, but that hasn't hurt them because they have skated better in the later, more important events. Osmond's coach has admitted that Kaetlyn has to learn not to peak too soon. It's not good strategy to leave one's best competition on nationals ice.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Maybe Gold and Wagner make errors, but they usually deliver more than 4 triples in their freeskates. Gold usually delivers 6, and Wagner, at least 5. Skaters have to deliver technical content to make judges sit up and take notice.
    Gold:
    SC: 4 clean triples
    NHK: 3 clean triples
    US Figure Skating Classic 2013: 3 clean triples
    Worlds: Yes, she landed 6 triples but the axel errors and 3T omission meant a TES score 11 points worse than the Olympics where she also landed 6 triples - you need to look at all elements... if a skater lands 7 triples and falls on every spin or messed up both 2As, that makes it worse than a 5 triple performance where everything was rotated, but 2 triples had -1/-2 landings. Her 6 triple skate still ended up being worth considerably less TES than Wagner's 5 triples and Asada's 5 triples (or Julia's 5 triples in Sochi).

    Wagner:
    SA: 4 clean triples
    GPF: 4 clean triples

    As for Gracie not being hurt because she's skated better in the later more important events, the only time Gracie had a good FS last season was in her team FS at the Olympics (going by what you said, nationals scoring shouldn't affect international scores, and up until that point, Gold had only done 4 triples max so far internationally). She skated cleanly doing 7 triples in the team FS getting a PCS of 61.89 which was even less than her Skate Canada PCS of 62.11 where she only did 4 clean triples. Then in her individual FS a week later, she gets 68.33 PCS for the same freeskate but with 6 triples and a fall. How do you even begin to explain that?

  11. #86
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    I'll leave these numbers here. Enjoy!


    ****
    TES in the FS during the 2013-2014 season.


    Julia
    SC: 70.46
    Rostelecom: 55.92
    GPF: 64.93
    Euros: 71.75
    Olympics Team: 71.69
    Olympics: 66.28
    Worlds: 65.57

    Average: 66.66
    Average (w/o Olympics): 65.73

    Mao:
    SA: 62.83
    NHK: 66.10
    GPF: 63.87
    Olympics: 73.03
    Worlds: 65.27

    Average: 66.22
    Average (w/o Olympics): 63.77


    Anna
    Cup of China: 62.15
    TEB: 65.17
    GPF: 60.01
    Worlds: 67.19

    Average: 63.63

    Polina
    JGP Mexico: 61.82
    JGP Minsk: 62.37
    JGPF: 62.95
    Olympics: 63.02
    Worlds: 66.39

    Average: 63.31
    Average (w/o Olympics): 63.38

    Ashley:
    SA: 58.54
    TEB: 61.81
    GPF: 56.06
    Olympics Individual: 61.07
    Worlds: 63.64

    Average: 60.22
    Average w/o Olympics: 60.01

    Adelina:

    COC: 50.36
    TEB: 65.15
    GPF: 46.45
    Euros: 62.03
    Olympics: 75.54

    Average: 59.91
    Average (w/o Olympics): 56.00

    Gracie
    U.S. International Classic: 49.05
    Skate Canada: 56.09
    NHK: 55.58
    Olympics Team: 67.49
    Olympics individual: 69.57
    Worlds: 58.58

    Average: 59.39
    Average (without Olympics): 54.83

    Carolina:
    COC: 46.34
    Rostelecom: 53.80
    Euros: 52.40
    Olympics: 68.84
    Worlds: 53.81

    Average: 55.03
    Average (w/o Olympics): 51.59


    Kanako:
    COC: 50.36
    Rostelcom: 58.26
    4CC: 69.25
    Olympics: 56.96
    Worlds: 51.69

    Average: 57.30
    Average (w/o Olympics): 57.39
    Average (w/o 4cc): 54.32

    Kaetlyn:
    Olympics Team: 54.53
    Olympics Individual: 55.97
    Worlds: 50.51

    Average: 53.67
    Average (w/o Olympics): 50.51


    Zijun:
    COC: 37.71
    4CC: 61.46
    Olympics: 55.79
    Worlds: 46.63

    Average: 50.40
    Average (w/o Olympics): 48.6
    Average (w/o 4CC): 46.71
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 06-14-2014 at 07:57 PM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Gold:
    SC: 4 clean triples
    NHK: 3 clean triples
    US Figure Skating Classic 2013: 3 clean triples
    Worlds: Yes, she landed 6 triples but the axel errors and 3T omission meant a TES score 11 points worse than the Olympics where she also landed 6 triples - you need to look at all elements... if a skater lands 7 triples and falls on every spin or messed up both 2As, that makes it worse than a 5 triple performance where everything was rotated, but 2 triples had -1/-2 landings. Her 6 triple skate still ended up being worth considerably less TES than Wagner's 5 triples and Asada's 5 triples (or Julia's 5 triples in Sochi).

    Wagner:
    SA: 4 clean triples
    GPF: 4 clean triples

    As for Gracie not being hurt because she's skated better in the later more important events, the only time Gracie had a good FS last season was in her team FS at the Olympics (going by what you said, nationals scoring shouldn't affect international scores, and up until that point, Gold had only done 4 triples max so far internationally). She skated cleanly doing 7 triples in the team FS getting a PCS of 61.89 which was even less than her Skate Canada PCS of 62.11 where she only did 4 clean triples. Then in her individual FS a week later, she gets 68.33 PCS for the same freeskate but with 6 triples and a fall. How do you even begin to explain that?
    Of course you left out Gracie's Olympic singles freeskate where she landed 6 triples and had the fourth highest TES. And you didn't consider the 2012-2013 season where Gracie landed 7 triples in the 2013 Worlds FS and 6 triples in the WTT 2013 FS. In the JW 2012 FS, Gracie landed 6 triples in her silver medal performance.

    So in ALL FIVE of her end-of-season freeskates over the last 3 years, she has landed at least 6 triples in every single one. You can nitpick her performances all you like, but there is a technical consistency there that cannot be denied, and is one of the reasons why the ISU judges like Gracie and give her good PCS scores.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Of course you left out Gracie's Olympic singles freeskate where she landed 6 triples and had the fourth highest TES. And you didn't consider the 2012-2013 season where Gracie landed 7 triples in the 2013 Worlds FS and 6 triples in the WTT 2013 FS. In the JW 2012 FS, Gracie landed 6 triples in her silver medal performance.

    So in ALL FIVE of her end-of-season freeskates over the last 3 years, she has landed at least 6 triples in every single one. You can nitpick her performances all you like, but there is a technical consistency there that cannot be denied, and is one of the reasons why the ISU judges like Gracie and give her good PCS scores.
    That's not technical consistency, though. What it does show, however, that when she hits, she hits very high and she seems to to hit at one or two key events. But as her overall TES average in the FS shows she was not consistent on earning those high technical scores throughout the season.

    Yes, you can argue about peaking too early/too late and what not, but that doesn't mean that we should see huge swings in the TES.

    So here's hoping that now she's with Frank, she can score those high-60s scores more often next season.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 06-14-2014 at 09:12 PM.

  14. #89
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    I didn't say she was consistent THROUGHOUT THE SEASON, I said she was consistent at the season's end CHAMPIONSHIP competitions which, after all, are the ones that count the most.

  15. #90
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    I didn't say she was consistent THROUGHOUT THE SEASON, I said she was consistent at the season's end CHAMPIONSHIP competitions which, after all, are the ones that count the most.
    As far as I know 2014 Worlds was an ISU championship and she lost a lot of points in the FS that ultimately cost her a medal. Yes you can blame post-Olympics blah, but the fact is that a medal was within her grasp and she made too many little mistakes to get it. For someone her technical caliber, it's a bit of a letdown that she did not medal with Adelina and Yuna not being there.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 06-14-2014 at 09:21 PM.

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