No, because Li left her best Championship performance on 4CC ice. China made a big error sending a skater just coming off injury to 3 big competitions in a row. If Osmond had gone to 4CC, Sochi and Worlds, perhaps Li would have beaten Osmond at Worlds, all things being equal.
Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry
- Thread starter CarneAsada
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No, because Li left her best Championship performance on 4CC ice. China made a big error sending a skater just coming off injury to 3 big competitions in a row. If Osmond had gone to 4CC, Sochi and Worlds, perhaps Li would have beaten Osmond at Worlds, all things being equal.
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- Jul 27, 2003
My god. No one is bashing Osmond. The sole point many of us have been trying make is that Osmond should learn to be more consistent if she hopes to see her PCS rise, which is NOT A BAD THING. It's a heck a lot better than being considered a talentless skater, who, no matter how many 7-triple programs they skate, will never be a real threat. And you really are overanalyzing this whole thing to death. No matter what stats you give, nothing will change the fact that many don't view Osmond as a consistent competitor in general (including the judges as well as Osmond's own fans, like me), especially when being compared to the likes of Lip. And I want to see her become more consistent and competitive, because I think she deserves higher PCS for her actual performance ability. But I am realistic about the fact that PCS usually comes with proven competitiveness (when you become a serious contender in the judges' eyes) and consistency, especially for a new skater on the scene with no previous track record.It's ultimately pointless to bash Osmond about her "days of late" i.e. last season when the only 2 times she competed internationally were the two biggest events, and coming off of injury. We have to see what she's made of this upcoming season - if she competes an injury-free season with 2-fall freeskates, then sure, you might have a point about her inconsistency. I've also agreed that she's not as consistent as Julia/Wagner/Gold and am not debating that even though you seem keen to make people think I am. However, I've also said Osmond/Li/Murakami/Gold/Wagner were not as consistent as Julia (who herself didn't deliver all season, as chuckm suggested) - which chuckm seemed to have taken great offense with.Unless chuckm thinks any of those skaters are more consistent than Julia, or thinks they aren't prone to the falls and URs that Osmond has (especially when Julia/Murakami/Li/Gold have alll had FS with 3 or less triples - i.e. not "atleast 4 clean" as you said - this season). All the skaters you mentioned try 7 triples anyways, so already they will, on paper, have a 1 triple advantage on Osmond. So if Osmond mars two triples and they mar two triples they'll still have the higher triple count. If Kim messed up a triple (so, 5 triples) and Gold repeated her Worlds FS with 6 triples, can you honestly say Gold's was the superior technical one based on triple count? How about the Olympics when Sotnikova landed 7 ratified triples and Kim landed 6?
Even an amazing skater like Hanyu had 2 falls in his Olympic FS, had a fall and a popped quad in his TEB FS, and had a fall and popped axel in his Skate Canada FS, so he's prone to at least 2 major errors himself - and this is the men's GPF/Olympic/World champion.
I wonder what chuckm's opinion of Li is and if it's the same as that of Osmond... oh, wait, she won a bronze at 4CC against Hicks/Imai/Chartrand, and had a clean FS at Worlds 2013, so she's absolved of any debate as to whether she deserves to be labeled as inconsistent as Osmond (who beat hear at Worlds/Sochi), right? :sarcasm:
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- Jan 25, 2013
You're saying that if Osmond beating Li at Sochi and Worlds was perhaps attributed to Osmond avoiding 4CC?! Come on.
And you're saying Li's poor performances at Worlds were due to her being sent to compete at 4CC and Sochi? Worlds were over a month after Sochi.
As for leaving her best performance on 4CC ice, what would you suggest the Chinese fed did... not give Li the opportunity to redeem a ton of ranking points (given it was an ISU championship with a weak field), and use it as a warm up/confidence booster for the Olympics?
It's like saying Julia shouldn't have been sent to Euros or done the team event and those performances should have been "saved" for the individual event and Worlds.
Actually, there are some people who say the latter--that Yulia's incredible Team performances and the insane media pressure that got her is what destroyed her chances at individuals. While Adelina had the pressure off her in individuals, and thus was able to have the skate of her life there rather than during the Team competition. So this hypothetical isn't as laughable as you seem to think.It's like saying Julia shouldn't have been sent to Euros or done the team event and those performances should have been "saved" for the individual event and Worlds.
(Also, what the heck would be the point of her saving her Europeans skate for Worlds? Do you think she could've beaten Mao if she hadn't had the 3S fall in the LP?)
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- Jan 25, 2013
The same can be said for Murakami, Li, or even Kostner last season.
And it's actually unfair to say Osmond is capable of just one or two good performances when last season she only had 4 full competitions (and withdrew from SC due to injury) including Nationals, and the season before she had 5 competitions, which she won two (three if you include Nationals).
The same with Li, she only had 4 competitions last season, and did well just at 4CC. Although the year before, Li had a "full" season with 7 competitions, where her only solid competition was Worlds (maybe Chinese Nationals where she faced zero pressure). Would it be fair to say then that Li seems to be capable of just one or two good performances per season?
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- Jan 25, 2013
I think she could have beaten Mao in the FS at least, had she not fallen on the 3S<<.
The reason I find it laughable is because people actually think that if a skater does well in one competition, that means if they hadn't competed they would have had that same excellent skate in their next competition. "Oh, if only so-and-so had saved their skate!" There's no guarantee that even without the media pressure Julia would have skated well in the individual FS... I mean, at Worlds, she didn't face the pressure of Sochi and she still fell. It happens to every skater, even a consistent one like Julia (I mean, look at her CoR FS).
I understand the concept of peaking, but trying to label skaters as early-season flops or late season bloomers or headcases or whatever - especially based on sample sizes of 2 seasons (and seasons where some skaters dealt with injury) - is ludicrous.
Osmond had just two good international performances in the 2012-2013 season: the Nebelhorn and Skate Canada, which she won, landing 5 triples with a fall in both. She landed only 3 triples with a fall at 4CC, 4 triples with two falls at 2013 Worlds, and 4 triples with a fall at 2013 WTT. She was not injured then, but those last two performances aren't really much better than her performances at Sochi and Worlds this year.
In Julia's case, I would look at the pressures on a very young girl and the extremely busy season she had: SC, CoR, GPF, Euros, Olympic Team event, Olympic singles event, Worlds. Of those competitions, she had excellent, fault-free performances at SC, GPF, Euros and Olympic Team, and just one fall at the end of her Worlds free skate. I would say that is an altogether remarkable record.
In Julia's case, I would look at the pressures on a very young girl and the extremely busy season she had: SC, CoR, GPF, Euros, Olympic Team event, Olympic singles event, Worlds. Of those competitions, she had excellent, fault-free performances at SC, GPF, Euros and Olympic Team, and just one fall at the end of her Worlds free skate. I would say that is an altogether remarkable record.
Blah, the Saitama tech controller was probably an executioner in a past life or something. Or maybe Mao was an executioner and the tech controller is out for revenge? I mean, as horrible as this sounds, should I be grateful Carolina had a meltdown? It looks like they wanted to give Mao a world-record SP to placate her, then send her home with no title. I can just see Mao skating cleanly or near-cleanly, and losing to Carolina with a fall due to bogus downgrades and ridiculous PCS.
In light of this, maybe Yulia really would've beaten Mao in the free if she'd skated perfectly. :think: Still, she wouldn't have won overall. Therefore, I still conclude: No point saving her Europeans skate for Worlds.
I do agree with your last paragraph. Sample sizes are too small. I don't think those conclusions are always out of line, but they only work when you apply them to someone near the end of their career (*cough*sorryJeremy). But the situation for Yulia in Sochi was a special case. I mean, she actually left the city to avoid the media, and then got harassed anyway when she arrived home. I suspected the pressure would snap her before the ladies event even started. She had one mistake at Worlds, but I wouldn't say it's anywhere near a meltdown as Sochi individuals.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Like I said, Osmond only skated 5 competitions in the 2012-2013 season, so your sample size is ridiculous. She hasn't had the opportunity to compete a full GP season yet, and was battling injury. Even with a fall though, the performances were still good enough to win, and thus should be credited as a win even if it isn't clean. Unless you want to look at Hanyu's season or Gold's season where most of their freeskates had at least 1 fall (and/or other major error). When Osmond starts with 6 triples max, and falls on 1, that's still a good skate. I mean, you seem to be under the impression that Gold omitting a triple and singling her double axels is still a solid skate with 6 triples, or Lipnitskaia landing 6 of 7 triples (the 7th being a downgraded fall) is a good skate. Skater 1 attempting 6 triples + 2 double axels, lands 5 triples and 2 double axels, and falls on one triple is about the same if not better than skater 2 attempting 7 triples + 2 double axels, and lands 6 triples, pops/falls both double axels, and completely leaves out a 7th triple.
As for winning with 5 triples and a fall... how do you feel about Mao's Skate America win with 5 triples and a fall/GPF win with 5 triples and a fall/NHK win with 5 triples/Worlds win with 5 triples? Or what about Lipnitskaia's CoR win with just 3 triples and fall?
Gold/Murakami/Lipnitskaia/Kostner/Suzuk/Li have all delivered freeskates with 3 triples or less (with falls) at some point last season, while uninjured, so I don't see why Osmond is getting all the flack. And if you're criticizing Osmond for falling in practically every FS, you could say the same about Gold or Hanyu last season.
Gold/Murakami/Lipnitskaia/Kostner/Suzuki/Li have all delivered freeskates at one time or other this season with 6 or 7 triples and no falls. Osmond wasn't injured in 2012-2013 and couldn't deliver any free skates with no falls, and none with more than 5 triples; this season she could deliver no more than 4 triples. As for 'sample size', Gold has about the same sample size as Osmond, but she has delivered six freeskates with 6 or 7 triples while Osmond has delivered none.
Lipnitskaia's FS at Worlds with 6 triples and one fall was very, very good whether you think so or not. She DID win a well-deserved World silver and will be the top seed in the upcoming Grand Prix.
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- Jan 25, 2013
I actually think Osmond not being able to compete on a second GP event (with a good shot at the GPF) hurt the momentum of her 2012-2013 season. It's not an excuse, but the lack of a 2nd GP was a bit of a slap in the face and could have been good experience for her to build towards 4CC and Worlds (neither event she had been to before). She won two events in 2012-2013 which were marred by a fall in each.
How many events did certain other skaters win in their debut season? Li (I don't count Volvo, lol)? Wagner (who took 5 seasons to win an event)? Gold (who has yet to win an event in 2 full seasons)?
Saying Gold has the same sample size as Osmond is ridiculous. Gold skated 13.5 (11.5 international) competitions in the past 2 years to Osmond skating 9.5 (7.5 international) competitions in the past two years, and two FULL GP seasons). Osmond has skated exactly 1.5 GP events -- Gold has skated 4 GP events. Also, as mentioned, Osmond tries 6 triples to Gold's 7 triple attempts, so it's obvious that even if Gracie falls, she'll deliver the max triples Osmond can deliver... but that's like saying Yu Na Kim can "only deliver" 6 triple performances max, so if Gracie falls her performance is still on par with a perfect performance from Yu Na because they both landed 6 triples.
I totally agree that Osmond isn't as consistent as Lip/Gold/Wagner/etc. but to imply that she's been given the same experience and opportunities as other top skaters to put out top performances is absolutely ludicrous and a pathetic attempt to disparage her for something beyond her control. Yes, she's had falls in freeskates, but she's not the only one. I hardly think Osmond skating cleanly with 6 triples even in multiple competitions would change your opinion of her anyways because then you'd stoop to some crap like "Oh, well she's only delivered 6 triples while others deliver 7."
There's no use in discussing such things with an inherent hater.And I don't disagree with you that Julia delivered a decent skate (in general, but poor for her) at Worlds (although it's amusing that you think just because Gold delivered 6 triples that makes it a strong skate and we can just neglect the fact that she omitted an entire triple and singled both axels). I disputed your assertion that Julia delivered all season, and somehow that got your panties in a bunch and onto a tirade of how Osmond's way less consistent which I've acknowledged anyways.
hwell:- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Oh, I see... so you are counting Nationals now, then? So that means we should count Osmond skating clean with 6 triples and no falls at Canadian Nationals, seeing as how you're counting Akiko's skate at Japan Nationals, right?
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- Jul 27, 2003
That's getting pretty ridiculous. You were doing pretty well at keeping in check your hating on Osmond / Canadian skaters for a while
I don't hate Osmond or Canadian skaters. What bothers me is the hype given skaters like Osmond who have just started their careers and haven't achieved anything of note as yet but are treated as if they have reached Kostner status and therefore are above criticism. Nam Nguyen will similarly be placed on a Chan pedestal long before he ever wins a medal at the senior level.
All those expectations have to put a huge burden of pressure on Osmond and may contribute to the nerves she's been showing in her performances.
All those expectations have to put a huge burden of pressure on Osmond and may contribute to the nerves she's been showing in her performances.
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- Jan 25, 2013
I'm not hyping her. I'm saying, let's give her a chance (and Li a chance) to prove what they can do with (hopefully for both of them) a full season. But it's asinine to disparage Osmond's inconsistency, when she hasn't even done more than one GP event, came off injury in 2013-2014, and was a newbie at 4CC and Worlds (where she was 4th after a clean SP, mind you) in 2012-2013. As for thinking that those who defend Osmond from those who disparage her somehow makes us seem like we think she's achieved Kostner status... well, that's your own irrational extrapolation.
Also, if anything, China did Li a big favour. Thanks to 4CC, she picked up 680 ranking points instead of the 305 points she would have received for her 14th place in Sochi (even placing 10th at 4CC would have boosted her ranking more than Sochi). If not for 4CC, Li would be 28th in the World Rankings, instead of 20th.
Of course, your speculation is that Li would have brought her 4CC performances to Sochi. Which is as ridiculous as saying Canada made a big error putting Osmond in the SP of the team event (where she was clean and earned 62.54 points), because then she would have surely done a perfect individual SP (instead of 56.18 points) and placed in the top 10 in Sochi. :sarcasm:
Also, if anything, China did Li a big favour. Thanks to 4CC, she picked up 680 ranking points instead of the 305 points she would have received for her 14th place in Sochi (even placing 10th at 4CC would have boosted her ranking more than Sochi). If not for 4CC, Li would be 28th in the World Rankings, instead of 20th.
Of course, your speculation is that Li would have brought her 4CC performances to Sochi. Which is as ridiculous as saying Canada made a big error putting Osmond in the SP of the team event (where she was clean and earned 62.54 points), because then she would have surely done a perfect individual SP (instead of 56.18 points) and placed in the top 10 in Sochi. :sarcasm:
I think Osmond will have a much better season this year. She basically has everything she needs to win. She's an energetic performer and has explosive jumps. She just needs to get her jumps under control and improve her consistency.
I think Li might be a victim of the puberty monster. A lot of her jumps are underrotated now that she has grown and can't rotate as quickly anymore. Plus, although many posters praised her artistry after the 2013 Worlds, I think her presentation needs a lot of improvement. I have no idea what Lori was thinking when she gave her the tango SP last season. Her performance to that music was utterly lifeless.
I think Li might be a victim of the puberty monster. A lot of her jumps are underrotated now that she has grown and can't rotate as quickly anymore. Plus, although many posters praised her artistry after the 2013 Worlds, I think her presentation needs a lot of improvement. I have no idea what Lori was thinking when she gave her the tango SP last season. Her performance to that music was utterly lifeless.
Yes, different disciplines, but Volosazhar/Trankov managed to do stellar to win gold despite doing the Team Event and Stolboa/Klimov had the skates of their lives after in the individual event to win silver after the Team FS. Savchenko/Szolkowy still ended falling to 3rd despite not doing the team event at all.
And lower in the rankings, Castelli/Shnapir ended up doing well, despite having to skate four times, scoring personal best scores.
So I don't buy the whole the team event caused hell theory for skaters in the individual event.
And lower in the rankings, Castelli/Shnapir ended up doing well, despite having to skate four times, scoring personal best scores.
So I don't buy the whole the team event caused hell theory for skaters in the individual event.
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- May 19, 2011
Agreed w/ everything.
Kaetlyn is a performer which will really help to boost her scores once she cleans up her presentation (still kinda sloppy) and starts landing her jumps consistently. It's too early to tell where she'll end up...
I am a bit worried about Zijun in terms of her jumps. I'm hoping her UR problems stem from a lack of mileage/nerves rather than her just not being able to rotate anymore. I do think she was wonderful at the 2013 worlds; there was more life to her performance and she seemed to sell it much better. This season however, her performances put me to sleep. That tango was horrific and her FS was very dull and boring...and she did nothing to breathe any kind of life into either performance.
If she wants to compete with Julia/Adelina/Gracie/Elena/Anna/Polina and the rest of this post-Sochi squad, she's going to have to step it up if she wants to be noticed.
This, so much. I'm still a little annoyed when I think of how the Canadian media hyped Chan before Vancouver, only for him to show up with that splatfest and still place ahead of Weir. I suspect I'd like Chan a lot more these days if it weren't for the overhype. Granted, he kinda lived up to it in the subsequent years (though the falling continued) but I think it came back to haunt everybody by Sochi, when the pressure of "CANADA'S FIRST MEN'S GOLD!" simply crushed him. At this point, I dunno if it's the curse or the pressure created by the curse that'll going to hurt people like Nam in the future.
I would agree with this. I don't blame the men's splatfest on the team event, at least not wholly. I think the men's field is just inconsistent in general, and this quad in particular. Sochi was simply the culmination of four messy years. I believe the Team Event likely had an impact on Yulia, because of her particular circumstances (insanely quick rise to fame/hype, hounded by the press, huge pressure, couldn't practice, and don't forget she's 15!). In light to these circumstances, I do wonder if she would've done better at individuals without the Team Event.
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