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Thread: Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry

  1. #91
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    Despite her mistakes on the axels, Gracie did land 6 triples at 2014 Worlds. Julia and especially Carolina (who landed only 3 triples) made their share of mistakes, too. It's not surprising considering how busy the season was for them, with Worlds being an anticlimax after Sochi. The only skater to have two clean skates was Pogo, and she did not skate at Sochi or Euros.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    I didn't say she was consistent THROUGHOUT THE SEASON, I said she was consistent at the season's end CHAMPIONSHIP competitions which, after all, are the ones that count the most.
    I would not classify her Worlds FS as consistent. She messed up the easiest jumps, and omitted an entire triple, and was tight on many jumps. It was only her inflated PCS that prevent her from losing to Suzuki and Wagner. One thing she was consistent on throughout the season, however, was her SP. Like Osmond, she's delivered clean SPs... but the FS is her nemesis where she's fallen at least once (save for the team FS in Sochi). Falling in the Olympic FS and falling and popping jumps in her Worlds FS doesn't constitute consistent... you can crow all you want that at least it was better than Osmond (who was coming off injury) but the reality is, she failed to get a World bronze that was in her grasp, and has yet to deliver a competition, or skate well enough in any international competition to win. Hopefully that should change next season though.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Despite her mistakes on the axels, Gracie did land 6 triples at 2014 Worlds. Julia and especially Carolina (who landed only 3 triples) made their share of mistakes, too. It's not surprising considering how busy the season was for them, with Worlds being an anticlimax after Sochi. The only skater to have two clean skates was Pogo, and she did not skate at Sochi or Euros.
    Uh... that's not something attributed to just this year. At Worlds 2013 the only clean skaters were Kim... and Popova). Worlds 2012 nobody had two clean skates. Same with Worlds 2011.

    Like I said, expecting clean skates from these skaters (especially ones coming off injury like Osmond) is irrational. The difficulty they are attempting under CoP makes clean skates rare (and thus more impressive when they are actually achieved). Sure it's been a busy season. But when 2 favourites aren't appearing at Worlds and you've got a perfect opportunity to get a World medal and you fail to do so, don't blame burnout. And it's not like Gold decided to compete at Four Continents or qualified to compete at the Grand Prix Final.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Why are you continuing to overanalyze this like crazy. You arent making any point. The overall point that was made is that Osmond is far less consistent than the likes of Julia and Wagner, and last season was less consistent than Gold, especialy late season when Gold really picked up; and that is a factor in her lower PCS, along with the legitimate ones related to her skating. That on their worst days they still stand up about 6 triples, with atleast 4 clean, which is what Osmond does on her very best days of late internationally does not in anyway make a counterargument against that point.
    It's ultimately pointless to bash Osmond about her "days of late" i.e. last season when the only 2 times she competed internationally were the two biggest events, and coming off of injury. We have to see what she's made of this upcoming season - if she competes an injury-free season with 2-fall freeskates, then sure, you might have a point about her inconsistency. I've also agreed that she's not as consistent as Julia/Wagner/Gold and am not debating that even though you seem keen to make people think I am. However, I've also said Osmond/Li/Murakami/Gold/Wagner were not as consistent as Julia (who herself didn't deliver all season, as chuckm suggested) - which chuckm seemed to have taken great offense with. Unless chuckm thinks any of those skaters are more consistent than Julia, or thinks they aren't prone to the falls and URs that Osmond has (especially when Julia/Murakami/Li/Gold have alll had FS with 3 or less triples - i.e. not "atleast 4 clean" as you said - this season). All the skaters you mentioned try 7 triples anyways, so already they will, on paper, have a 1 triple advantage on Osmond. So if Osmond mars two triples and they mar two triples they'll still have the higher triple count. If Kim messed up a triple (so, 5 triples) and Gold repeated her Worlds FS with 6 triples, can you honestly say Gold's was the superior technical one based on triple count? How about the Olympics when Sotnikova landed 7 ratified triples and Kim landed 6?

    Even an amazing skater like Hanyu had 2 falls in his Olympic FS, had a fall and a popped quad in his TEB FS, and had a fall and popped axel in his Skate Canada FS, so he's prone to at least 2 major errors himself - and this is the men's GPF/Olympic/World champion.

    I wonder what chuckm's opinion of Li is and if it's the same as that of Osmond... oh, wait, she won a bronze at 4CC against Hicks/Imai/Chartrand, and had a clean FS at Worlds 2013, so she's absolved of any debate as to whether she deserves to be labeled as inconsistent as Osmond (who beat hear at Worlds/Sochi), right?

  5. #95
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    Gold has never skated well in the early season and she didn't skate well in the early season this year either, but Frank Carroll took over her training midway during the GP and she rapidly improved after that.

    However, she HAS performed consistently well --- as far as completing her triples is concerned --- in the championship events at season's end over the past three seasons. She did NOT compete at 2012 Worlds, but at 2012 JUNIOR Worlds where she landed 6 triples and won silver. She landed 7 triples at 2013 Worlds and 6 at 2013 WTT, 7 at the Sochi team event, 6 at the Sochi singles event, and 6 at 2014 Worlds.

    As for Li, she has not only gone through a pretty big growth spurt, but she has also been recovering from injury. She went to one GP event where she performed poorly, and then was withdrawn from her second event. IMO, it was a mistake to send her to 4CC before Sochi and Worlds. She skated quite well at 4CC, landing a clean 3f+3t in the SP and 6 triples in the FS. If she had skipped 4CC and done that at Sochi, she would probably have placed much higher.

    If Osmond is going to be 'cut a break' due to injury, then Li deserves to be given the same consideration. I do have to add that Li has at least demonstrated that she can deliver 6- and 7-triple performances with no falls (at 2014 4CC and 2013 Worlds) while Osmond's have topped out at 5, with one fall.

  6. #96
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    Dear Mrs. P,

    Thank you for the TES comparison. That is a fantastic reference!

    Adelina GPF(!)

    Polina.. now she just needs a program that draws people in. I'm rooting for this one

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    If Osmond is going to be 'cut a break' due to injury, then Li deserves to be given the same consideration. I do have to add that Li has at least demonstrated that she can deliver 6- and 7-triple performances with no falls (at 2014 4CC and 2013 Worlds) while Osmond's have topped out at 5, with one fall.
    Of course I cut a break to Li. Like Osmond, I don't think we've seen a complete season from her and we shouldn't judge her or label her based on incomplete seasons with injury.

    Li might have had two performances where she delivered more triples than Osmond ever has (I mean, she attempts 7 triples to begin with, so already the likelihood is that she will out-triple Osmond). But figure skating is much more than counting triples and you have to look at other elements that were performed. Plenty of skaters do 7 triple performances, but Kim is still superior to them with her 6 triple performances (and nobody is criticizing Kim for having performances that "top out at 6 triples").

    Say a skater delivered the following: 3S+3T+2T(fall), 3Z, 3F+2T(fall), 3L+2A(fall), 3T, 3S, 2A(fall) they still would have "landed 7 clean triples", even if they fell 4 times.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    ^I agree with the point you're making, but:


    I think they were only rivals for the past season (though they qualify as a rivalry far more than Li vs. Osmond ). Before that, Chan vs. Takahashi was the rivalry.
    Point well taken (also agreed with CanadianSkaterGuy on this).

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Say a skater delivered the following: 3S+3T+2T(fall), 3Z, 3F+2T(fall), 3L+2A(fall), 3T, 3S, 2A(fall) they still would have "landed 7 clean triples", even if they fell 4 times.
    But Gracie fell only once at Worlds, at the end of the free skate where she landed 6 triples; of the 6, 5 were clean, excepting only the lip. Not at all the same as your example shown above.

    OTOH, of Kaetlyn's 4 triples at 2014 Worlds, only one---the opening 3f---was clean: she hopped on the landing of the 2a+3t, the lutz was a flutz, she fell on the salchow, she turned out of the second flip, she doubled the 3t in the 3-jump combo, and turned out of the 2a. Of the 11 jumps in her FS, only 5 were clean.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    But Gracie fell only once at Worlds, at the end of the free skate where she landed 6 triples; of the 6, 5 were clean, excepting only the lip. Not at all the same as your example shown above.

    OTOH, of Kaetlyn's 4 triples at 2014 Worlds, only one---the opening 3f---was clean: she hopped on the landing of the 2a+3t, the lutz was a flutz, she fell on the salchow, she turned out of the second flip, she doubled the 3t in the 3-jump combo, and turned out of the 2a. Of the 11 jumps in her FS, only 5 were clean.
    My point was that if you single and downgrade double axels and leave out an entire triple, that is still significant. Yes, she fell only once, but she had a shaky loop (with -GOE), and both axels were singled (a << being a 'single'). So, if you're counting up the triples

    Again, Osmond was coming off of injury, and wasn't in optimal form. It's amazing that she was able to actually hit a 3F+3T for the first time ever in the SP, bearing this in mind. Comparing her Worlds FS to somebody who's more consistent like Gold or Lipnitskaia is besides the point. It would be like criticizing Li for landing 2 triples to Gold or Lipnitskaia. I have no idea why this subject of comparing Osmond to Gold/Lipnitskaia came up in the first place when the point of this thread is comparing Li to Osmond. All I said earlier is that Lipnitskaia did not deliver all season, but she is more consistent than Li/Murakami/Osmond/Gold/Wagner.

    You said yourself the big competitions are where it counts, so does this mean you agree that Osmond is superior to Li, having beaten her at Worlds and Olympics?

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You said yourself the big competitions are where it counts, so does this mean you agree that Osmond is superior to Li, having beaten her at Worlds and Olympics?
    No, because Li left her best Championship performance on 4CC ice. China made a big error sending a skater just coming off injury to 3 big competitions in a row. If Osmond had gone to 4CC, Sochi and Worlds, perhaps Li would have beaten Osmond at Worlds, all things being equal.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's ultimately pointless to bash Osmond about her "days of late" i.e. last season when the only 2 times she competed internationally were the two biggest events, and coming off of injury. We have to see what she's made of this upcoming season - if she competes an injury-free season with 2-fall freeskates, then sure, you might have a point about her inconsistency. I've also agreed that she's not as consistent as Julia/Wagner/Gold and am not debating that even though you seem keen to make people think I am. However, I've also said Osmond/Li/Murakami/Gold/Wagner were not as consistent as Julia (who herself didn't deliver all season, as chuckm suggested) - which chuckm seemed to have taken great offense with. Unless chuckm thinks any of those skaters are more consistent than Julia, or thinks they aren't prone to the falls and URs that Osmond has (especially when Julia/Murakami/Li/Gold have alll had FS with 3 or less triples - i.e. not "atleast 4 clean" as you said - this season). All the skaters you mentioned try 7 triples anyways, so already they will, on paper, have a 1 triple advantage on Osmond. So if Osmond mars two triples and they mar two triples they'll still have the higher triple count. If Kim messed up a triple (so, 5 triples) and Gold repeated her Worlds FS with 6 triples, can you honestly say Gold's was the superior technical one based on triple count? How about the Olympics when Sotnikova landed 7 ratified triples and Kim landed 6?

    Even an amazing skater like Hanyu had 2 falls in his Olympic FS, had a fall and a popped quad in his TEB FS, and had a fall and popped axel in his Skate Canada FS, so he's prone to at least 2 major errors himself - and this is the men's GPF/Olympic/World champion.

    I wonder what chuckm's opinion of Li is and if it's the same as that of Osmond... oh, wait, she won a bronze at 4CC against Hicks/Imai/Chartrand, and had a clean FS at Worlds 2013, so she's absolved of any debate as to whether she deserves to be labeled as inconsistent as Osmond (who beat hear at Worlds/Sochi), right?
    My god. No one is bashing Osmond. The sole point many of us have been trying make is that Osmond should learn to be more consistent if she hopes to see her PCS rise, which is NOT A BAD THING. It's a heck a lot better than being considered a talentless skater, who, no matter how many 7-triple programs they skate, will never be a real threat. And you really are overanalyzing this whole thing to death. No matter what stats you give, nothing will change the fact that many don't view Osmond as a consistent competitor in general (including the judges as well as Osmond's own fans, like me), especially when being compared to the likes of Lip. And I want to see her become more consistent and competitive, because I think she deserves higher PCS for her actual performance ability. But I am realistic about the fact that PCS usually comes with proven competitiveness (when you become a serious contender in the judges' eyes) and consistency, especially for a new skater on the scene with no previous track record.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    No, because Li left her best Championship performance on 4CC ice. China made a big error sending a skater just coming off injury to 3 big competitions in a row. If Osmond had gone to 4CC, Sochi and Worlds, perhaps Li would have beaten Osmond at Worlds, all things being equal.
    You're saying that if Osmond beating Li at Sochi and Worlds was perhaps attributed to Osmond avoiding 4CC?! Come on.

    And you're saying Li's poor performances at Worlds were due to her being sent to compete at 4CC and Sochi? Worlds were over a month after Sochi.

    As for leaving her best performance on 4CC ice, what would you suggest the Chinese fed did... not give Li the opportunity to redeem a ton of ranking points (given it was an ISU championship with a weak field), and use it as a warm up/confidence booster for the Olympics?

    It's like saying Julia shouldn't have been sent to Euros or done the team event and those performances should have been "saved" for the individual event and Worlds.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's like saying Julia shouldn't have been sent to Euros or done the team event and those performances should have been "saved" for the individual event and Worlds.
    Actually, there are some people who say the latter--that Yulia's incredible Team performances and the insane media pressure that got her is what destroyed her chances at individuals. While Adelina had the pressure off her in individuals, and thus was able to have the skate of her life there rather than during the Team competition. So this hypothetical isn't as laughable as you seem to think.

    (Also, what the heck would be the point of her saving her Europeans skate for Worlds? Do you think she could've beaten Mao if she hadn't had the 3S fall in the LP?)

  15. #105
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    Yes, and Osmond left her Olympic performances on Nationals ice. She seems to be capable of just one or two good performances per season.

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