Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 131

Thread: Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry

  1. #106
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,028
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Yes, and Osmond left her Olympic performances on Nationals ice. She seems to be capable of just one or two good performances per season.
    The same can be said for Murakami, Li, or even Kostner last season.

    And it's actually unfair to say Osmond is capable of just one or two good performances when last season she only had 4 full competitions (and withdrew from SC due to injury) including Nationals, and the season before she had 5 competitions, which she won two (three if you include Nationals).

    The same with Li, she only had 4 competitions last season, and did well just at 4CC. Although the year before, Li had a "full" season with 7 competitions, where her only solid competition was Worlds (maybe Chinese Nationals where she faced zero pressure). Would it be fair to say then that Li seems to be capable of just one or two good performances per season?

  2. #107
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,028
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Actually, there are some people who say the latter--that Yulia's incredible Team performances and the insane media pressure that got her is what destroyed her chances at individuals. While Adelina had the pressure off her in individuals, and thus was able to have the skate of her life there rather than during the Team competition. So this hypothetical isn't as laughable as you seem to think.

    (Also, what the heck would be the point of her saving her Europeans skate for Worlds? Do you think she could've beaten Mao if she hadn't had the 3S fall in the LP?)
    I think she could have beaten Mao in the FS at least, had she not fallen on the 3S<<.

    The reason I find it laughable is because people actually think that if a skater does well in one competition, that means if they hadn't competed they would have had that same excellent skate in their next competition. "Oh, if only so-and-so had saved their skate!" There's no guarantee that even without the media pressure Julia would have skated well in the individual FS... I mean, at Worlds, she didn't face the pressure of Sochi and she still fell. It happens to every skater, even a consistent one like Julia (I mean, look at her CoR FS).

    I understand the concept of peaking, but trying to label skaters as early-season flops or late season bloomers or headcases or whatever - especially based on sample sizes of 2 seasons (and seasons where some skaters dealt with injury) - is ludicrous.

  3. #108
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,571
    Osmond had just two good international performances in the 2012-2013 season: the Nebelhorn and Skate Canada, which she won, landing 5 triples with a fall in both. She landed only 3 triples with a fall at 4CC, 4 triples with two falls at 2013 Worlds, and 4 triples with a fall at 2013 WTT. She was not injured then, but those last two performances aren't really much better than her performances at Sochi and Worlds this year.

    In Julia's case, I would look at the pressures on a very young girl and the extremely busy season she had: SC, CoR, GPF, Euros, Olympic Team event, Olympic singles event, Worlds. Of those competitions, she had excellent, fault-free performances at SC, GPF, Euros and Olympic Team, and just one fall at the end of her Worlds free skate. I would say that is an altogether remarkable record.

  4. #109
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,772
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think she could have beaten Mao in the FS at least, had she not fallen on the 3S<<.

    The reason I find it laughable is because people actually think that if a skater does well in one competition, that means if they hadn't competed they would have had that same excellent skate in their next competition. "Oh, if only so-and-so had saved their skate!" There's no guarantee that even without the media pressure Julia would have skated well in the individual FS... I mean, at Worlds, she didn't face the pressure of Sochi and she still fell. It happens to every skater, even a consistent one like Julia (I mean, look at her CoR FS).

    I understand the concept of peaking, but trying to label skaters as early-season flops or late season bloomers or headcases or whatever - especially based on sample sizes of 2 seasons (and seasons where some skaters dealt with injury) - is ludicrous.
    Blah, the Saitama tech controller was probably an executioner in a past life or something. Or maybe Mao was an executioner and the tech controller is out for revenge? I mean, as horrible as this sounds, should I be grateful Carolina had a meltdown? It looks like they wanted to give Mao a world-record SP to placate her, then send her home with no title. I can just see Mao skating cleanly or near-cleanly, and losing to Carolina with a fall due to bogus downgrades and ridiculous PCS.

    In light of this, maybe Yulia really would've beaten Mao in the free if she'd skated perfectly. Still, she wouldn't have won overall. Therefore, I still conclude: No point saving her Europeans skate for Worlds.

    I do agree with your last paragraph. Sample sizes are too small. I don't think those conclusions are always out of line, but they only work when you apply them to someone near the end of their career (*cough*sorryJeremy). But the situation for Yulia in Sochi was a special case. I mean, she actually left the city to avoid the media, and then got harassed anyway when she arrived home. I suspected the pressure would snap her before the ladies event even started. She had one mistake at Worlds, but I wouldn't say it's anywhere near a meltdown as Sochi individuals.

  5. #110
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,028
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Osmond had just two good international performances in the 2012-2013 season: the Nebelhorn and Skate Canada, which she won, landing 5 triples with a fall in both. She landed only 3 triples with a fall at 4CC, 4 triples with two falls at 2013 Worlds, and 4 triples with a fall at 2013 WTT. She was not injured then, but those last two performances aren't really much better than her performances at Sochi and Worlds this year.
    Like I said, Osmond only skated 5 competitions in the 2012-2013 season, so your sample size is ridiculous. She hasn't had the opportunity to compete a full GP season yet, and was battling injury. Even with a fall though, the performances were still good enough to win, and thus should be credited as a win even if it isn't clean. Unless you want to look at Hanyu's season or Gold's season where most of their freeskates had at least 1 fall (and/or other major error). When Osmond starts with 6 triples max, and falls on 1, that's still a good skate. I mean, you seem to be under the impression that Gold omitting a triple and singling her double axels is still a solid skate with 6 triples, or Lipnitskaia landing 6 of 7 triples (the 7th being a downgraded fall) is a good skate. Skater 1 attempting 6 triples + 2 double axels, lands 5 triples and 2 double axels, and falls on one triple is about the same if not better than skater 2 attempting 7 triples + 2 double axels, and lands 6 triples, pops/falls both double axels, and completely leaves out a 7th triple.


    As for winning with 5 triples and a fall... how do you feel about Mao's Skate America win with 5 triples and a fall/GPF win with 5 triples and a fall/NHK win with 5 triples/Worlds win with 5 triples? Or what about Lipnitskaia's CoR win with just 3 triples and fall?

    Gold/Murakami/Lipnitskaia/Kostner/Suzuk/Li have all delivered freeskates with 3 triples or less (with falls) at some point last season, while uninjured, so I don't see why Osmond is getting all the flack. And if you're criticizing Osmond for falling in practically every FS, you could say the same about Gold or Hanyu last season.

  6. #111
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,571
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Gold/Murakami/Lipnitskaia/Kostner/Suzuk/Li have all delivered freeskates with 3 triples or less (with falls) at some point last season, while uninjured, so I don't see why Osmond is getting all the flack. And if you're criticizing Osmond for falling in practically every FS, you could say the same about Gold or Hanyu last season.
    Gold/Murakami/Lipnitskaia/Kostner/Suzuki/Li have all delivered freeskates at one time or other this season with 6 or 7 triples and no falls. Osmond wasn't injured in 2012-2013 and couldn't deliver any free skates with no falls, and none with more than 5 triples; this season she could deliver no more than 4 triples. As for 'sample size', Gold has about the same sample size as Osmond, but she has delivered six freeskates with 6 or 7 triples while Osmond has delivered none.

    Lipnitskaia's FS at Worlds with 6 triples and one fall was very, very good whether you think so or not. She DID win a well-deserved World silver and will be the top seed in the upcoming Grand Prix.

  7. #112
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,028
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Gold/Murakami/Lipnitskaia/Kostner/Suzuki/Li have all delivered freeskates at one time or other this season with 6 or 7 triples and no falls. Osmond wasn't injured in 2012-2013 and couldn't deliver any free skates with no falls, and none with more than 5 triples; this season she could deliver no more than 4 triples. As for 'sample size', Gold has about the same sample size as Osmond, but she has delivered six freeskates with 6 or 7 triples while Osmond has delivered none.

    Lipnitskaia's FS at Worlds with 6 triples and one fall was very, very good whether you think so or not. She DID win a well-deserved World silver and will be the top seed in the upcoming Grand Prix.
    I actually think Osmond not being able to compete on a second GP event (with a good shot at the GPF) hurt the momentum of her 2012-2013 season. It's not an excuse, but the lack of a 2nd GP was a bit of a slap in the face and could have been good experience for her to build towards 4CC and Worlds (neither event she had been to before). She won two events in 2012-2013 which were marred by a fall in each.

    How many events did certain other skaters win in their debut season? Li (I don't count Volvo, lol)? Wagner (who took 5 seasons to win an event)? Gold (who has yet to win an event in 2 full seasons)?

    Saying Gold has the same sample size as Osmond is ridiculous. Gold skated 13.5 (11.5 international) competitions in the past 2 years to Osmond skating 9.5 (7.5 international) competitions in the past two years, and two FULL GP seasons). Osmond has skated exactly 1.5 GP events -- Gold has skated 4 GP events. Also, as mentioned, Osmond tries 6 triples to Gold's 7 triple attempts, so it's obvious that even if Gracie falls, she'll deliver the max triples Osmond can deliver... but that's like saying Yu Na Kim can "only deliver" 6 triple performances max, so if Gracie falls her performance is still on par with a perfect performance from Yu Na because they both landed 6 triples.

    I totally agree that Osmond isn't as consistent as Lip/Gold/Wagner/etc. but to imply that she's been given the same experience and opportunities as other top skaters to put out top performances is absolutely ludicrous and a pathetic attempt to disparage her for something beyond her control. Yes, she's had falls in freeskates, but she's not the only one. I hardly think Osmond skating cleanly with 6 triples even in multiple competitions would change your opinion of her anyways because then you'd stoop to some crap like "Oh, well she's only delivered 6 triples while others deliver 7." There's no use in discussing such things with an inherent hater.

    And I don't disagree with you that Julia delivered a decent skate (in general, but poor for her) at Worlds (although it's amusing that you think just because Gold delivered 6 triples that makes it a strong skate and we can just neglect the fact that she omitted an entire triple and singled both axels). I disputed your assertion that Julia delivered all season, and somehow that got your panties in a bunch and onto a tirade of how Osmond's way less consistent which I've acknowledged anyways.

  8. #113
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,028
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Gold/Murakami/Lipnitskaia/Kostner/Suzuki/Li have all delivered freeskates at one time or other this season with 6 or 7 triples and no falls.
    Oh, I see... so you are counting Nationals now, then? So that means we should count Osmond skating clean with 6 triples and no falls at Canadian Nationals, seeing as how you're counting Akiko's skate at Japan Nationals, right?

  9. #114
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,527
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    No, because Li left her best Championship performance on 4CC ice. China made a big error sending a skater just coming off injury to 3 big competitions in a row. If Osmond had gone to 4CC, Sochi and Worlds, perhaps Li would have beaten Osmond at Worlds, all things being equal.
    That's getting pretty ridiculous. You were doing pretty well at keeping in check your hating on Osmond / Canadian skaters for a while

  10. #115
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,571
    I don't hate Osmond or Canadian skaters. What bothers me is the hype given skaters like Osmond who have just started their careers and haven't achieved anything of note as yet but are treated as if they have reached Kostner status and therefore are above criticism. Nam Nguyen will similarly be placed on a Chan pedestal long before he ever wins a medal at the senior level.

    All those expectations have to put a huge burden of pressure on Osmond and may contribute to the nerves she's been showing in her performances.

  11. #116
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,028
    I'm not hyping her. I'm saying, let's give her a chance (and Li a chance) to prove what they can do with (hopefully for both of them) a full season. But it's asinine to disparage Osmond's inconsistency, when she hasn't even done more than one GP event, came off injury in 2013-2014, and was a newbie at 4CC and Worlds (where she was 4th after a clean SP, mind you) in 2012-2013. As for thinking that those who defend Osmond from those who disparage her somehow makes us seem like we think she's achieved Kostner status... well, that's your own irrational extrapolation.

    Also, if anything, China did Li a big favour. Thanks to 4CC, she picked up 680 ranking points instead of the 305 points she would have received for her 14th place in Sochi (even placing 10th at 4CC would have boosted her ranking more than Sochi). If not for 4CC, Li would be 28th in the World Rankings, instead of 20th.

    Of course, your speculation is that Li would have brought her 4CC performances to Sochi. Which is as ridiculous as saying Canada made a big error putting Osmond in the SP of the team event (where she was clean and earned 62.54 points), because then she would have surely done a perfect individual SP (instead of 56.18 points) and placed in the top 10 in Sochi.

  12. #117
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    271
    I think Osmond will have a much better season this year. She basically has everything she needs to win. She's an energetic performer and has explosive jumps. She just needs to get her jumps under control and improve her consistency.

    I think Li might be a victim of the puberty monster. A lot of her jumps are underrotated now that she has grown and can't rotate as quickly anymore. Plus, although many posters praised her artistry after the 2013 Worlds, I think her presentation needs a lot of improvement. I have no idea what Lori was thinking when she gave her the tango SP last season. Her performance to that music was utterly lifeless.

  13. #118
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    8,602
    Yes, different disciplines, but Volosazhar/Trankov managed to do stellar to win gold despite doing the Team Event and Stolboa/Klimov had the skates of their lives after in the individual event to win silver after the Team FS. Savchenko/Szolkowy still ended falling to 3rd despite not doing the team event at all.

    And lower in the rankings, Castelli/Shnapir ended up doing well, despite having to skate four times, scoring personal best scores.

    So I don't buy the whole the team event caused hell theory for skaters in the individual event.

  14. #119
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,498
    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    I think Osmond will have a much better season this year. She basically has everything she needs to win. She's an energetic performer and has explosive jumps. She just needs to get her jumps under control and improve her consistency.

    I think Li might be a victim of the puberty monster. A lot of her jumps are underrotated now that she has grown and can't rotate as quickly anymore. Plus, although many posters praised her artistry after the 2013 Worlds, I think her presentation needs a lot of improvement. I have no idea what Lori was thinking when she gave her the tango SP last season. Her performance to that music was utterly lifeless.
    Agreed w/ everything.

    Kaetlyn is a performer which will really help to boost her scores once she cleans up her presentation (still kinda sloppy) and starts landing her jumps consistently. It's too early to tell where she'll end up...

    I am a bit worried about Zijun in terms of her jumps. I'm hoping her UR problems stem from a lack of mileage/nerves rather than her just not being able to rotate anymore. I do think she was wonderful at the 2013 worlds; there was more life to her performance and she seemed to sell it much better. This season however, her performances put me to sleep. That tango was horrific and her FS was very dull and boring...and she did nothing to breathe any kind of life into either performance.

    If she wants to compete with Julia/Adelina/Gracie/Elena/Anna/Polina and the rest of this post-Sochi squad, she's going to have to step it up if she wants to be noticed.

  15. #120
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,772
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    I don't hate Osmond or Canadian skaters. What bothers me is the hype given skaters like Osmond who have just started their careers and haven't achieved anything of note as yet but are treated as if they have reached Kostner status and therefore are above criticism. Nam Nguyen will similarly be placed on a Chan pedestal long before he ever wins a medal at the senior level.

    All those expectations have to put a huge burden of pressure on Osmond and may contribute to the nerves she's been showing in her performances.
    This, so much. I'm still a little annoyed when I think of how the Canadian media hyped Chan before Vancouver, only for him to show up with that splatfest and still place ahead of Weir. I suspect I'd like Chan a lot more these days if it weren't for the overhype. Granted, he kinda lived up to it in the subsequent years (though the falling continued) but I think it came back to haunt everybody by Sochi, when the pressure of "CANADA'S FIRST MEN'S GOLD!" simply crushed him. At this point, I dunno if it's the curse or the pressure created by the curse that'll going to hurt people like Nam in the future.

    So I don't buy the whole the team event caused hell theory for skaters in the individual event.
    I would agree with this. I don't blame the men's splatfest on the team event, at least not wholly. I think the men's field is just inconsistent in general, and this quad in particular. Sochi was simply the culmination of four messy years. I believe the Team Event likely had an impact on Yulia, because of her particular circumstances (insanely quick rise to fame/hype, hounded by the press, huge pressure, couldn't practice, and don't forget she's 15!). In light to these circumstances, I do wonder if she would've done better at individuals without the Team Event.

Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •