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Thread: How Much Does Choreography Cost?

  1. #31
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    Almost all coaches do choreography for their low level students. But a national level skater needs a professional choreographer. Skaters recognize the old adage that you are a fool to choreograph for yourself. You can't see yourself like someone else can see you.
    Top choreographers are almost always a five figure fee.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Given some of the rubbish Lori Nichol has produced recently? Yeah, I'd believe that that was the program as she gave it to him. (Some of it was a blatant copy-paste from the Carmen she did for Lysacek.) Thanks goodness he's not going back for more rubbish.
    Urgh. Lysacek's Carmen. I don't know what he was interpreting, but it sure as heck wasn't Carmen.

    Skaters should be required to do their own choreography? While I've contemplated the possibility before, I can't agree with making it a requirement. Skaters aren't required to learn jumps, spins, or footwork on their own. Should we make that a requirement, since some can afford good coaches while others can't? How do we know if the best jumpers achieved their success with their own talent and effort, or if they "lucked out" getting a coach that taught them good technique? How do we know if people came up with innovative spin positions on their own, or if they got good advice?

    Where do we draw the line, anyway? Do they have to do their choreography in a locked room, with no one seeing it, no one giving advice? And once they debut it in the beginning of the season, and their coaches give them advice on what to change... does that count as cheating? Should we ban everybody then, because choreography doesn't exist in a vacuum--somebody's going to make suggestions even to a program that's self-choreographed. And if it has a lot of issues--which it likely does--people will give a lot of advice and create lots of tweaks.

    Doesn't make sense and is impossible to enforce, imo. And as Papagena said, skaters are interpreters. (This is why, for me, how well you execute your program is more important than the program itself).

    What I would like to see is having more choreographers in business. I got bored hearing Lori Nichol, Lori Nichol, all the time, at the Olympics.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by trains View Post
    Skaters recognize the old adage that you are a fool to choreograph for yourself. You can't see yourself like someone else can see you.
    Farris' two National medals, JGPF silver and bronze, JWC silver and gold, and fifth-place finish in his maiden GP suggests that that might be news to him.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Farris' two National medals, JGPF silver and bronze, JWC silver and gold, and fifth-place finish in his maiden GP suggests that that might be news to him.
    Of course there are always exceptions to everything. But he likely had someone else knowledgeable about program composition with him to tell him how the program movements and layout looked visually.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by trains View Post
    Of course there are always exceptions to everything. But he likely had someone else knowledgeable about program composition with him to tell him how the program movements and layout looked visually.
    So that automatically invalidates the work he put in to making the program? Because he showed it to his coaches to make sure it was okay?

  6. #36
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    Not at all. Obviously he had very good results. That is just how program choreography works, that's all.
    And national level skaters get a lot of feedback throughout the season preparation. Coaches have their skater's programs monitored by judges and callers to make sure they are working for the skater and to make sure the levels and points are being maxed. Often the programs are altered or tweeked before being set as the package for the season. This is to give the skater his/her best chance to succeed.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by trains View Post
    Not at all. Obviously he had very good results. That is just how program choreography works, that's all.
    And national level skaters get a lot of feedback throughout the season preparation. Coaches have their skater's programs monitored by judges and callers to make sure they are working for the skater and to make sure the levels and points are being maxed. Often the programs are altered or tweeked before being set as the package for the season. This is to give the skater his/her best chance to succeed.
    Yes - and they do this whether they did the program themselves or whether they hired a professional to do it for them. Joshua is obviously not a fool and neither is Jeremy but according to you they are because they did their own programs.

    And some professional choreographers just aren't the best choice for a skater. By season's end I would rather have seen Max ad-lib his own version of Carmen than watch him try to put energy into that rubbish Nichol gave him.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Given some of the rubbish Lori Nichol has produced recently? Yeah, I'd believe that that was the program as she gave it to him. (Some of it was a blatant copy-paste from the Carmen she did for Lysacek.) Thanks goodness he's not going back for more rubbish.

    Max is actually an interesting case because if you watch closely, he can hear the music and feel the music - he just needs a bit of help to use his body to interpret it. It's like there's just one link missing in the chain. And yeah, that big smile when he gets it - the One Direction show program drives me bonkers (because One Direction ugh) but that big smile, and the dance moves, he's really enjoying himself, and I reckon it was more complex than Carmen!
    Fair enough! I too believe Lori Nichol has given us some really mediocre programs lately.

    Maybe there's a better example, though, because I often see skaters who worked with a certain in-demand choreographer and I'm left thinking after the program, "I don't think that's what the choreographer intended."

  9. #39
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    Karne you are quite right in what you have said in your last post. This will happen whether the skater has designed the program themselves or not.
    In my post I brought up an old skating adage that has its roots in experience and common sense. It is true that this adage exists. I did not call Joshua or Jeremy a fool, nor did I intend to. Good for them for succeeding where most don't.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by breathesgelatin View Post
    Maybe there's a better example, though, because I often see skaters who worked with a certain in-demand choreographer and I'm left thinking after the program, "I don't think that's what the choreographer intended."
    Gachinski's St Louis Blues by Tom Dickson ended up quite stripped-back from the original version. There's a show version out there somewhere and it's even funnier and better, but by the time he aced it at Euros it was a lot barer than it had been. The only thing that never got stripped back was the steps.

    Plushenko's Nijinsky is a picture perfect example of stripping back a program, though in that case it was because of injury, illness and exhaustion that the program gradually got emptier and emptier as the season progressed...

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    So let's crown Joshua Farris the World Champion and have done with it already then shall we?
    World championships are determined by much more than points given for choreography. You know that so why make a statement like that?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Quote from Averbukh "I will say a shocking thing, perhaps, but the choreography in competitive figure skating is just in its infancy."

    I see no reason for a skater to not be able to do their own choreography. Some would probably do quite well and others would faulter. I however do not like setting a rule one way or the other. It seems too constrictive IMO and some skaters may not even have interest in doing it. What is good for one is not always good for all. Some people just aren't creative and need someone to help them. Lets not forget how many hours these atheletes are already logging in.
    True, some people are not as creative as others and they would suffer the consequences of that, just as skaters suffer the consequences of not being as flexible as another skater, or as good a spinner as another skater, or as artistic as another skater. The rules are not changed to adjust for those differences in ability, so why single out choreography for that kind of treatment.

  13. #43
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    I think if they started requiring skaters to do their own choreography we will probably get a few Milli Vanilli's; where there is 'oh yeah xyz skater did this all their own' - then a year or 2 down the line we find out otherwise and then we are getting into stripping titles away and awarding somebody else the gold 2 or more years later - like track.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    World championships are determined by much more than points given for choreography. You know that so why make a statement like that?
    I was joking in response to a really rather ridiculous suggestion.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Yes - and they do this whether they did the program themselves or whether they hired a professional to do it for them. Joshua is obviously not a fool and neither is Jeremy but according to you they are because they did their own programs.

    And some professional choreographers just aren't the best choice for a skater. By season's end I would rather have seen Max ad-lib his own version of Carmen than watch him try to put energy into that rubbish Nichol gave him.

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