How Much Does Choreography Cost? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

How Much Does Choreography Cost?

Meoima

Match Penalty
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Feb 13, 2014
Actually if you are watching the top skaters for years you will notice they don't always have good choreography. Some have good choreography but poor performances. So yes Choreography is a part of the whole package but I don't think it's the most crucial part. It's how you execute the elements and convince the judges that all the parts of your choreography are brilliant.
 

pointyourtoe

On the Ice
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Apr 11, 2013
Agreed. Plus skating is subjective enough. Watch Dancing with the Stars if you want to watch self made choreography
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
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Quote from Averbukh "I will say a shocking thing, perhaps, but the choreography in competitive figure skating is just in its infancy."

I see no reason for a skater to not be able to do their own choreography. Some would probably do quite well and others would faulter. I however do not like setting a rule one way or the other. It seems too constrictive IMO and some skaters may not even have interest in doing it. What is good for one is not always good for all. Some people just aren't creative and need someone to help them. Lets not forget how many hours these atheletes are already logging in.
 

breathesgelatin

Final Flight
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Dec 12, 2013
Quote from Averbukh "I will say a shocking thing, perhaps, but the choreography in competitive figure skating is just in its infancy."

I see no reason for a skater to not be able to do their own choreography. Some would probably do quite well and others would faulter. I however do not like setting a rule one way or the other. It seems too constrictive IMO and some skaters may not even have interest in doing it. What is good for one is not always good for all. Some people just aren't creative and need someone to help them. Lets not forget how many hours these atheletes are already logging in.

I agree. For example, I can imagine Adam Rippon would have great programs if he had to self-choreograph. But others (perhaps the majority of skaters) would struggle.

I also would add that skaters cannot always actually carry out the choreographic programs they are given. Take for example, Max Aaron. I don't dislike Max, he is not the type of skater that normally appeals to me but he seems to have such a positive personality you cannot help but root for him. But look at his Carmen program choreographed by Lori Nichol. Can you really imagine that he was fully carrying out the choreo Lori gave him? It's hard for me to imagine. It seems to me it's likely he just didn't execute all the stuff she gave him. Not to pick on Max, because there are many other examples of this. Now, probably Lori was not a great fit for Max. Most of us would say this. But yeah, to me the choreo score is not just about what the choreographer gives you but also involves whether you can execute it.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Sep 14, 2008
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I just hope skating is not too overly influenced by money to develop skill that would be sad.

Yes, it is sad, for the dwindling amount of people who care about the sport. That is, if you aren't surrounded by a lot of money at a young age.
 

76olympics

On the Ice
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Mar 4, 2004
I was just listening to the Manley Woman podcast with Susie Wynne and Susie commented on how much debt she incurred in the "come back" with Russ Witherby in 1993-4. She had to tour with Torvill and Dean to work it off. They commented that it was very difficult to finance amateur skating back then because there were so many prohibitions with funding for many years. I think Toller Cranston got into trouble before the 1976 Olympics for publishing a book and had to forego the profits. ( Help me here if I am forgetting the details..) He did mention that his art career was a life saver in keeping him solvent.

So, it's understandable that Davis and White are really sincere when they praise Puffs Soft Packs!
 

Shani

On the Ice
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Jan 11, 2014
Puffs Soft Packs are actually pretty good, and cheap. Imagine this, you might actually use the product you endorse in real life. I can see some problems with other things but the sincerity level here might be "Oh We use that"
 

Amei

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Nov 11, 2013
Choreography/Composition; which is the arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, space and music (e.g. idea, concept, unity, pattern, phrasing, originality, design). Skaters are in effect being given points for something they themselves did not do. That does not strike me as fair.

They have to go out and execute the program, not the choreographer. From the logic I derived in your post - then a skater should also have to come up with the design for their own costume, because costuming can help or detract from a program.

Sorry, still not convinced skaters should not do their own choreography. How fair is it that some skaters have the resources to afford the best choreographers, while others don't?

My mother's favorite phrase: life is not fair. Just because a skater has the best coaches or choreographers it doesn't mean their skates are going to automatically be better - like I said, the skater still has to execute the program.

At least, the name of a skater's choreographer could be kept anonymous so as not to contribute to judging bias.

How do you propose they do that?
 

Tavi...

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Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Skaters ought to be required to do their own choreography and, as in other aspects of their skating, judged on and given points for it.

I don't really agree with this. For me, the talent for choreography - like the ability to write a song or a play - is fundamentally different from the talent for interpretation. A choreographer, composer or playwright takes an idea, dream, music, event, emotion, etc. and uses the language of dance, music, etc. to structure, or create, a response. A dancer, skater, singer, pianist or actor takes what has been created and expresses a musical and emotional response, adding another layer which may further illuminate or dull the creative work and the impetus behind it for the audience. Sometimes these talents reside in equal measure in the same person (Rohene Word comes to mind), but very often they do not. JMHO, but I don't think anyone would say that Pavarotti wasn't a great singer because he sang what Puccini or Verdi wrote, rather than writing operas himself. To me it's the same with skaters and choreography.

ETA, the inability to execute the demands of the choreography, music, etc., is one of the things that will dull the meaning of the work for the audience. In skating, because the performer is also an athlete, there is an added dimension - the athlete is judged for the inability to execute, say, a triple axel, separate and apart from whether the rest of his interpretation is beautiful.
 

karne

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Can you really imagine that he was fully carrying out the choreo Lori gave him? It's hard for me to imagine. It seems to me it's likely he just didn't execute all the stuff she gave him. Not to pick on Max, because there are many other examples of this. Now, probably Lori was not a great fit for Max. Most of us would say this. But yeah, to me the choreo score is not just about what the choreographer gives you but also involves whether you can execute it.

Given some of the rubbish Lori Nichol has produced recently? Yeah, I'd believe that that was the program as she gave it to him. (Some of it was a blatant copy-paste from the Carmen she did for Lysacek.) Thanks goodness he's not going back for more rubbish.

Max is actually an interesting case because if you watch closely, he can hear the music and feel the music - he just needs a bit of help to use his body to interpret it. It's like there's just one link missing in the chain. And yeah, that big smile when he gets it - the One Direction show program drives me bonkers (because One Direction ugh) but that big smile, and the dance moves, he's really enjoying himself, and I reckon it was more complex than Carmen!
 

trains

On the Ice
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Dec 2, 2004
Almost all coaches do choreography for their low level students. But a national level skater needs a professional choreographer. Skaters recognize the old adage that you are a fool to choreograph for yourself. You can't see yourself like someone else can see you.
Top choreographers are almost always a five figure fee.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
Given some of the rubbish Lori Nichol has produced recently? Yeah, I'd believe that that was the program as she gave it to him. (Some of it was a blatant copy-paste from the Carmen she did for Lysacek.) Thanks goodness he's not going back for more rubbish.
Urgh. Lysacek's Carmen. I don't know what he was interpreting, but it sure as heck wasn't Carmen.

Skaters should be required to do their own choreography? While I've contemplated the possibility before, I can't agree with making it a requirement. Skaters aren't required to learn jumps, spins, or footwork on their own. Should we make that a requirement, since some can afford good coaches while others can't? How do we know if the best jumpers achieved their success with their own talent and effort, or if they "lucked out" getting a coach that taught them good technique? How do we know if people came up with innovative spin positions on their own, or if they got good advice?

Where do we draw the line, anyway? Do they have to do their choreography in a locked room, with no one seeing it, no one giving advice? And once they debut it in the beginning of the season, and their coaches give them advice on what to change... does that count as cheating? Should we ban everybody then, because choreography doesn't exist in a vacuum--somebody's going to make suggestions even to a program that's self-choreographed. And if it has a lot of issues--which it likely does--people will give a lot of advice and create lots of tweaks.

Doesn't make sense and is impossible to enforce, imo. And as Papagena said, skaters are interpreters. (This is why, for me, how well you execute your program is more important than the program itself).

What I would like to see is having more choreographers in business. I got bored hearing Lori Nichol, Lori Nichol, all the time, at the Olympics. :laugh:
 

karne

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Skaters recognize the old adage that you are a fool to choreograph for yourself. You can't see yourself like someone else can see you.

Farris' two National medals, JGPF silver and bronze, JWC silver and gold, and fifth-place finish in his maiden GP suggests that that might be news to him.
 

trains

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Dec 2, 2004
Farris' two National medals, JGPF silver and bronze, JWC silver and gold, and fifth-place finish in his maiden GP suggests that that might be news to him.

Of course there are always exceptions to everything. But he likely had someone else knowledgeable about program composition with him to tell him how the program movements and layout looked visually.
 

karne

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Of course there are always exceptions to everything. But he likely had someone else knowledgeable about program composition with him to tell him how the program movements and layout looked visually.

So that automatically invalidates the work he put in to making the program? Because he showed it to his coaches to make sure it was okay? :unsure:
 

trains

On the Ice
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Dec 2, 2004
Not at all. Obviously he had very good results. That is just how program choreography works, that's all.
And national level skaters get a lot of feedback throughout the season preparation. Coaches have their skater's programs monitored by judges and callers to make sure they are working for the skater and to make sure the levels and points are being maxed. Often the programs are altered or tweeked before being set as the package for the season. This is to give the skater his/her best chance to succeed.
 

karne

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Not at all. Obviously he had very good results. That is just how program choreography works, that's all.
And national level skaters get a lot of feedback throughout the season preparation. Coaches have their skater's programs monitored by judges and callers to make sure they are working for the skater and to make sure the levels and points are being maxed. Often the programs are altered or tweeked before being set as the package for the season. This is to give the skater his/her best chance to succeed.

Yes - and they do this whether they did the program themselves or whether they hired a professional to do it for them. Joshua is obviously not a fool and neither is Jeremy but according to you they are because they did their own programs.

And some professional choreographers just aren't the best choice for a skater. By season's end I would rather have seen Max ad-lib his own version of Carmen than watch him try to put energy into that rubbish Nichol gave him.
 

breathesgelatin

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Given some of the rubbish Lori Nichol has produced recently? Yeah, I'd believe that that was the program as she gave it to him. (Some of it was a blatant copy-paste from the Carmen she did for Lysacek.) Thanks goodness he's not going back for more rubbish.

Max is actually an interesting case because if you watch closely, he can hear the music and feel the music - he just needs a bit of help to use his body to interpret it. It's like there's just one link missing in the chain. And yeah, that big smile when he gets it - the One Direction show program drives me bonkers (because One Direction ugh) but that big smile, and the dance moves, he's really enjoying himself, and I reckon it was more complex than Carmen!

Fair enough! I too believe Lori Nichol has given us some really mediocre programs lately.

Maybe there's a better example, though, because I often see skaters who worked with a certain in-demand choreographer and I'm left thinking after the program, "I don't think that's what the choreographer intended."
 

trains

On the Ice
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Dec 2, 2004
Karne you are quite right in what you have said in your last post. This will happen whether the skater has designed the program themselves or not.
In my post I brought up an old skating adage that has its roots in experience and common sense. It is true that this adage exists. I did not call Joshua or Jeremy a fool, nor did I intend to. Good for them for succeeding where most don't.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Maybe there's a better example, though, because I often see skaters who worked with a certain in-demand choreographer and I'm left thinking after the program, "I don't think that's what the choreographer intended."

Gachinski's St Louis Blues by Tom Dickson ended up quite stripped-back from the original version. There's a show version out there somewhere and it's even funnier and better, but by the time he aced it at Euros it was a lot barer than it had been. The only thing that never got stripped back was the steps.

Plushenko's Nijinsky is a picture perfect example of stripping back a program, though in that case it was because of injury, illness and exhaustion that the program gradually got emptier and emptier as the season progressed...
 
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