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Thread: How Much Does Choreography Cost?

  1. #16
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post

    Now I am really curious if Carolina got discount for her Ave Maria consider her Scheherazade.

  2. #17
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Skaters ought to be required to do their own choreography and, as in other aspects of their skating, judged on and given points for it.
    I am sure we would be forced to witness many disasters. Even the judges wouldn't stand it I suppose.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Skaters ought to be required to do their own choreography and, as in other aspects of their skating, judged on and given points for it.
    So let's crown Joshua Farris the World Champion and have done with it already then shall we?

  4. #19
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    If skaters use the same program for a full year and practice at their home rinks in the off-season developing the programs they will use in competition, there would be no way to police which ones got outside help on the choreography and which did it completely on their own. That's not a rule that could be enforced.

    There could be an improv competition where skaters hear music for the first time and have to come up with choreography to that music that day, isolated from coaches or other advisors. But 1) you still wouldn't know who came into the competition with preplanned moves to adapt to whatever music they were given, on which they had gotten outside advice; 2) choreography put together in less than a day would likely be less effective than choreography planned and practiced over months.

    And also 3) choreography designed to include all the difficult elements required in a competitive short program or freeskate will almost always be less effective artistically than choreography whose primary purpose is artistic effectiveness.

  5. #20
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    Choreography/Composition; which is the arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, space and music (e.g. idea, concept, unity, pattern, phrasing, originality, design). Skaters are in effect being given points for something they themselves did not do. That does not strike me as fair.

    Sorry, still not convinced skaters should not do their own choreography. How fair is it that some skaters have the resources to afford the best choreographers, while others don't? The playing field needs to be leveled. And so what if disasters occur, they already do occur in other areas. The skaters will survive that and the fans will too. As to skaters who would cheat, I suspect most would eventually get found out and, hopefully, banned from skating.

    At least, the name of a skater's choreographer could be kept anonymous so as not to contribute to judging bias.

  6. #21
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Actually if you are watching the top skaters for years you will notice they don't always have good choreography. Some have good choreography but poor performances. So yes Choreography is a part of the whole package but I don't think it's the most crucial part. It's how you execute the elements and convince the judges that all the parts of your choreography are brilliant.

  7. #22
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    Agreed. Plus skating is subjective enough. Watch Dancing with the Stars if you want to watch self made choreography

  8. #23
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote from Averbukh "I will say a shocking thing, perhaps, but the choreography in competitive figure skating is just in its infancy."

    I see no reason for a skater to not be able to do their own choreography. Some would probably do quite well and others would faulter. I however do not like setting a rule one way or the other. It seems too constrictive IMO and some skaters may not even have interest in doing it. What is good for one is not always good for all. Some people just aren't creative and need someone to help them. Lets not forget how many hours these atheletes are already logging in.

  9. #24
    Custom Title breathesgelatin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Quote from Averbukh "I will say a shocking thing, perhaps, but the choreography in competitive figure skating is just in its infancy."

    I see no reason for a skater to not be able to do their own choreography. Some would probably do quite well and others would faulter. I however do not like setting a rule one way or the other. It seems too constrictive IMO and some skaters may not even have interest in doing it. What is good for one is not always good for all. Some people just aren't creative and need someone to help them. Lets not forget how many hours these atheletes are already logging in.
    I agree. For example, I can imagine Adam Rippon would have great programs if he had to self-choreograph. But others (perhaps the majority of skaters) would struggle.

    I also would add that skaters cannot always actually carry out the choreographic programs they are given. Take for example, Max Aaron. I don't dislike Max, he is not the type of skater that normally appeals to me but he seems to have such a positive personality you cannot help but root for him. But look at his Carmen program choreographed by Lori Nichol. Can you really imagine that he was fully carrying out the choreo Lori gave him? It's hard for me to imagine. It seems to me it's likely he just didn't execute all the stuff she gave him. Not to pick on Max, because there are many other examples of this. Now, probably Lori was not a great fit for Max. Most of us would say this. But yeah, to me the choreo score is not just about what the choreographer gives you but also involves whether you can execute it.

  10. #25
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I just hope skating is not too overly influenced by money to develop skill that would be sad.
    Yes, it is sad, for the dwindling amount of people who care about the sport. That is, if you aren't surrounded by a lot of money at a young age.

  11. #26
    Custom Title 76olympics's Avatar
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    I was just listening to the Manley Woman podcast with Susie Wynne and Susie commented on how much debt she incurred in the "come back" with Russ Witherby in 1993-4. She had to tour with Torvill and Dean to work it off. They commented that it was very difficult to finance amateur skating back then because there were so many prohibitions with funding for many years. I think Toller Cranston got into trouble before the 1976 Olympics for publishing a book and had to forego the profits. ( Help me here if I am forgetting the details..) He did mention that his art career was a life saver in keeping him solvent.

    So, it's understandable that Davis and White are really sincere when they praise Puffs Soft Packs!

  12. #27
    Rinkside
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    Puffs Soft Packs are actually pretty good, and cheap. Imagine this, you might actually use the product you endorse in real life. I can see some problems with other things but the sincerity level here might be "Oh We use that"

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Choreography/Composition; which is the arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, space and music (e.g. idea, concept, unity, pattern, phrasing, originality, design). Skaters are in effect being given points for something they themselves did not do. That does not strike me as fair.
    They have to go out and execute the program, not the choreographer. From the logic I derived in your post - then a skater should also have to come up with the design for their own costume, because costuming can help or detract from a program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Sorry, still not convinced skaters should not do their own choreography. How fair is it that some skaters have the resources to afford the best choreographers, while others don't?
    My mother's favorite phrase: life is not fair. Just because a skater has the best coaches or choreographers it doesn't mean their skates are going to automatically be better - like I said, the skater still has to execute the program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    At least, the name of a skater's choreographer could be kept anonymous so as not to contribute to judging bias.
    How do you propose they do that?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Skaters ought to be required to do their own choreography and, as in other aspects of their skating, judged on and given points for it.
    I don't really agree with this. For me, the talent for choreography - like the ability to write a song or a play - is fundamentally different from the talent for interpretation. A choreographer, composer or playwright takes an idea, dream, music, event, emotion, etc. and uses the language of dance, music, etc. to structure, or create, a response. A dancer, skater, singer, pianist or actor takes what has been created and expresses a musical and emotional response, adding another layer which may further illuminate or dull the creative work and the impetus behind it for the audience. Sometimes these talents reside in equal measure in the same person (Rohene Word comes to mind), but very often they do not. JMHO, but I don't think anyone would say that Pavarotti wasn't a great singer because he sang what Puccini or Verdi wrote, rather than writing operas himself. To me it's the same with skaters and choreography.

    ETA, the inability to execute the demands of the choreography, music, etc., is one of the things that will dull the meaning of the work for the audience. In skating, because the performer is also an athlete, there is an added dimension - the athlete is judged for the inability to execute, say, a triple axel, separate and apart from whether the rest of his interpretation is beautiful.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by breathesgelatin View Post
    Can you really imagine that he was fully carrying out the choreo Lori gave him? It's hard for me to imagine. It seems to me it's likely he just didn't execute all the stuff she gave him. Not to pick on Max, because there are many other examples of this. Now, probably Lori was not a great fit for Max. Most of us would say this. But yeah, to me the choreo score is not just about what the choreographer gives you but also involves whether you can execute it.
    Given some of the rubbish Lori Nichol has produced recently? Yeah, I'd believe that that was the program as she gave it to him. (Some of it was a blatant copy-paste from the Carmen she did for Lysacek.) Thanks goodness he's not going back for more rubbish.

    Max is actually an interesting case because if you watch closely, he can hear the music and feel the music - he just needs a bit of help to use his body to interpret it. It's like there's just one link missing in the chain. And yeah, that big smile when he gets it - the One Direction show program drives me bonkers (because One Direction ugh) but that big smile, and the dance moves, he's really enjoying himself, and I reckon it was more complex than Carmen!

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